How Fear Works with our Minds, Bodies and Spirits: The Healers Café, Dr. Manon chats with Dr. Steven Parkes

In this episode of The Healers Café, Dr. Manon chats with Dr Steven Parkes a Physician, Coach, Speaker, Entrepreneur, Healthcare Leader

Highlights from today’s episode include:

Dr Steven Parkes (14:35):

Yes. It’s so fundamental to what we’ve thought of as, as traditional Western medicine. there’s three words that I think really explained the way I was traditionally trained and that’s diagnose ,treat and then repeat, and ultimately there’s symptoms that patients will feel and the symptoms, once they cause enough of a concern, then they’ll seek attention medically. And so often in the ER, that’s where people come and they’ll see me, they’re in the ER and there’s a particular symptom. And this works for traumatic things. I fell and really hurt my leg. I was in a car accident, these types of things absolutely that works. But what we’re seeing in the public health data for a few decades now is this constant growth of chronic inflammatory diseases. And that modality, that foundation and theorem of diagnose treatment, repeat even, even science, if I’m going to change one variable and see what happens, it’s outdated and it’s ineffective because the body particularly the healing modalities of the body, the immune system is a complex system and you can’t check, you can’t modify one little part of that web without effecting the whole other web.

Dr Steven Parkes (19:53):

if it’s in the ER, I’m always aware, tuned in. If someone’s having a stroke, I can be there in a minute or a second. But presence is the new paradigm because there’s a healing modality of presence that really can be felt. So that’s where, that’s where we’re moving towards.

About Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND:

Dr. Manon is a Naturopathic Doctor, the Founder of Bowen College, an International Speaker with an upcoming TEDx talk in May 2020, and the author of the Amazon best-selling book “What Patient’s Don’t Say if Doctors Don’t Ask.” Watch for her next book, due out in 2020.

SOCIAL MEDIA:

Dr. Manon, ND – Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube | Twitter

About The Healers Café:

Dr. Manon’s show is the #1 show for medical practitioners and holistic healers to have heart to heart conversations about their day to day lives.

About Dr Steven Parkes:

Emergency Medicine Physician, Director of Emergency Medicine Services at St. Margaret’s Hospital, Former co-founder of EMPact Emergency Physicians. LLC and Co-director of Rush Copley Emergency Department for 6 years. Physician, Coach, Speaker, Entrepreneur, Healthcare Leader

SOCIAL MEDIA:

Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | ClinicanCoachingInstitute.com | EssentialVitality.org

TRANSCRIPT

Dr Manon (00:01):

So welcome to The Healers Cafe. And today I have with me Dr. Steven Parkes, and he is an emergency medicine physician and director of emergency medicine services at Saint Margaret’s hospital. He’s the former cofounder of EMPACT emergency physicians. And he has an LLC and co-director of rush Copely emergency department for six years. And what else can I tell you about him? He has also done public health and is doing something called Pranic healing. So what I would like to start with, so first of all, welcome, I have so many questions for you, but I would like to know first, what got you first into emergency medicine and what, what changed? What happened?

Dr Steven Parkes (01:06):

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on I’m so happy. You know, we connected so quickly you know, as we were learning different skills and what got me into emergency medicine, I always knew I wanted to help people from a young age, I was the helper. So whether it was helping my dad hold the screwdriver flashlight or helping my mom with three siblings, or then getting into high school and helping people with their homework or learning, that was always the trend. And for someone who loves science, I love helping people. I was always told I was going to go into engineering and I ,kinda like building things, but once I realized that I was going to be in a cubicle, doing that for a lifetime I started looking for something else.

Dr Steven Parkes (01:50):

And so my girlfriend in high school, her dad was a physician and so……… Maybe I could do that. And that led me to medical school and that led me go to emergency medicine. You asked why emergency medicine really? I am kind of a high energy guy. So I like things that are fast paced. And I loved going all out for eight, 10 or 12 hours, sometimes 24 hours for one yard shift, and then being able to turn it off, not having to have a pager or anything at home. And now looking back, it’s been such a blessing because it’s afforded me to learn and do and lead in emergency medicine and then to take on all these other endeavours outside of the timeframe of, ER, shift work. And that’s what made it personal development, other ways of healing, functional medicine, Pranic healing you know, crazy guy went off and did 15 Ironmans and got a couple of degrees in public health and business. because I’m trying to figure out why is the system not helping people the way it’s supposed to. And when you keep digging, you find answers and when you find answers, you, you eventually find solutions. And sometimes those solutions aren’t in the traditional institutions.

Dr Manon (03:00):

Interesting path, but you’re still practicing though, In emergency.? Like, do you have any any Covid……or what’s happening right now with you?

Dr Steven Parkes (03:16):

So now I’m actually shifting full time into working with wellness and essential oils with people. So I still do four to six shifts in the emergency room per month. I shifted and was doing more when this COVID started because they needed help coordinating and the preparedness. So I was doing probably three times that just more leadership roles and I’ve taken care of 60, 70 people with COVID positive tests. So, and I’ve seen people who are really sick and that’s been pretty much the extreme minority. And I’ve seen the vast majority of people who are really not sick or they have flu like symptoms, and I’ll just say Covid is not the flu. It’s not the same thing. But the fear with this virus is such ……. can be a gripping thing for people. So it’s using some of these coaching skills and personal development skills with people to just get back to trust that they’re going to be okay because most people get to go home. They’re okay. And and usually as long as they let them know, try not to watch too much of the news.

Dr Manon (04:24):

Interesting. You say that because if you look at the news, it’s, it’s all like, I mean, there’s a whole thing with numbers and I’ve been trying to follow different people, looking at analyzing these numbers because, first it started seeming like it would be just insane. And then, it didn’t quite pan out to be true, but even when the numbers have shifted by the official you know, statements, it seems like the fear and the, the media approach and the politicization of all this continues. And so people are living in fear. And I thought maybe you could talk a little bit more about that, and the impact it has.

Speaker 2 (05:15):

You know, I think just in talking to people and serving just the general public and patients who come to the ER, I think people understand that you know, there is a certain fear out there. I think what people haven’t fully understood is what that fear does to our physical bodies. And I had someone a couple of weeks ago who came in and very healthy, very fit, works out every day. And when that person came in, their heart rate was 140, which is far, far higher than normal. And we did a long, expensive workup and everything turned out to be okay. But ultimately we found that fear itself stacked over time was contributing to the chemistry of fear in the nervous system. So there are very real physical effects of fear. And, this is the interesting thing about how fear works with our minds, bodies and spirits is the brain is always looking out for the potential threats.

Dr Steven Parkes (06:14):

That’s the brain, that’s not us, that’s the brain. And it doesn’t just look out for the threats, it rationalizes and judges and says, no, I’m justified in looking for these threats. I have to watch more news. I had one gentleman come in, I felt so bad for him. He was not sleeping for about a week. And I asked him, I said, how much you news have you been watching and he said, Oh, I’m really good about that. I am watching the morning news afternoon news, the press conference and the other news. And I said, well, how many hours? He said, Oh, about, he was real proud. He’s like eight to 10 hours. And my heart sank because I’m seeing the physical things he’s coming to the air with. And I’m not saying it was a hundred percent of why he was there, but to be honest, doing this for awhile, I feel strongly at 80 to 90% of the physical symptoms he was experiencing was the, the fear the meaning of fear that was made by the brain and then put into the chemistry of the body and the blood.

Dr Steven Parkes (07:09):

I wrote on his prescription watch news no more than 1 hour per day which was part of his treatment because it can absolutely make us sick. So I believe that strongly and I studied the science behind it. And it’s absolutely true.

Dr Manon (07:24):

Okay. Can you, can you expand on that a little bit more so that people really get the, the physiology of fear how that actually works?

Dr Steven Parkes (07:36):

Yes. So the best I can describe it in a kind of an efficient way is imagine you’re in cave person days, right? And you stick your head out of the cave and you see a saber tooth tiger. So there is a immediate response, you know, a jolting response of fear and it serves a purpose. That purpose is to keep us alive and it was evolved many, many years ago. So when that happens, there is an increase in blood pressure. There’s an increase in heart rate. Our senses are increased. There’s adrenaline released in the body and it can be a very, almost empowering feeling. And so that is designed to keep us safe. The problem then is when that fear system is activated over and over and over again for ancient ancestors, when there was a saber tooth tiger, they would run or fight or get eaten and be done, but within hours, the fear would be gone and the body would return to a resting repairing state.

Dr Steven Parkes (08:38):

Now we’re not having that. We have 24 seven screens always available to start a lesson, get attention. And some may be saying, well, these aren’t Sabre tooth tigers in these screens. Well, there is an element of that ,that is meant to profoundly threaten our sense of safety and security. And I would argue it is more dangerous because there is an almost unconscious trickle effect of adrenaline, of stress, hormone cortisol in our body. And these are the things that get in the way of our immune system being able to do its job. And so by the very irony, all this news that says, we need to be scared and diligent and do all these things, it is actually hurting our immune system. And the science is absolutely clear on that. Fear kills our immune system and overworking, not sleeping, all these things. These are the foundations of wellness and you can do all the right things, but if you’re constantly living in fear, those right things are not going to pay the dividends that we think they are. So yes, it is mind boggling to me still, as long as I’ve been studying this. And that’s why it’s such a powerful message of real compassion, even for someone who is angry or acting out or yelling or passionate about something, even having compassion for that other human, because they’re going through often a stacking of fear response. So it takes, takes leadership now to step up, stop ourselves and act out of compassion for others and ourselves to bring that response.

Dr Manon (10:11):

I really agree with that point too, because, there’s the fear of the virus, then there’s the fear of, you know, the vaccine, because will it be tested? Will it work? Is it safe, et cetera, et cetera, will it be mandatory? You know, all of that, And so you can find fear everywhere……. Should you wear a mask? Is it worse? Because if, you keep your own you know, your own bacteria there. If you take it out, then you’re being rude to others and it’s dangerous to others. So there’s so many versions of and so many different studies that show different elements of parts and it, but the bottom line is fear is always there. You’re afraid of being judged. You’re afraid of all of this and that fear of being judged or the fear of whatever it is. If, if we’re judging other people we’re not coming from compassion, we’re actually changing our own immune system. because I mean, definitely compassion affects our body.

Dr Steven Parkes (11:25):

There’s an activity I’ll give sometimes when patients come in, particularly stressed or, or other physicians I’m coaching or friends, and it’s so simple. Maybe, maybe you’ve heard of this, but it’s called the three gratitudes. All you do is when you get up in the morning, you think of three things that you’re grateful for. Usually something big, something small. I like to say something random or silly and, and there’s a chemistry behind this. And it is that when you really not just name them intellectually, but actually feel that gratitude. Like I’m so thankful to have this opportunity to speak and communicate and interact and, and share this wisdom with other people. Like we’re in a time and age where we don’t have to go to a movie studio to get things like this film, we can just set this up and do this and get it out there.

Dr Steven Parkes (12:10):

So gratitude is the antidote to fear you cannot neurochemically be both fearful and in gratitude at the same time. So it’s kind of like a muscle too, you know, you can go to the gym and work on building a muscle when you rehearse gratitude and those feelings over and over again, you’re actually strengthening that wiring in the system so that when we’re approached with something that’s potentially fearful, we’re already a little bit of a place of gratitude unconsciously, and it makes us more resilient and more compassionate. So it is absolutely a practice that I invite and encourage people to do. It’s free and it’s powerful.

Dr Manon (12:54):

Definitely. And there was actually some studies now showing that compassion actually affects the Vegas nerve. . And that’s the parasympathetic part. The part that actually helps restore and heal.

Dr Manon (13:12):

So when you’re talking about constant stress, stress mode, we can’t shift off and go to parasympathetic very easily and gratitude is……..these feelings are really the thing that shifts that are one of the things, but anyone can do it, like you say. So I love that you share that. So, now you’ve got a, quite a different role because you’re in emergency medicine and there you’ve got your adrenaline running, And at the same time, it sounds like you’re doing a very much needed education process because at least my experience is that it’s changing. You know, I’ve had many patients who are medical doctors, but there’s a lot of the training that’s at the base of what medical doctors do. Doesn’t appear to take that holistic view of the person. And can you speak a little bit to that and also how it may impact some of the decisions or what’s happening in this current crisis.

Dr Steven Parkes (14:35):

Dr Steven Parkes (15:59):

And this is what we’re seeing now with side effects. So many medicines, medications have side effects. And so when you take a holistic approach, you take a partnership approach with, okay, what are the behaviours that can change? What are the foundational things that I can do as a person, as a patient to change my health and take a holistic approach? How can I, as a physician partner with my patient to help them see what they can do to realize they have much more power than they were ever told. This, is what we are stepping into and there’s a new paradigm of healing. And it is an exciting time to be a healer because of this. And like any paradigm shift, we don’t move into a new paradigm unless there’s a major pain from the old paradigm. There’s something that’s not being addressed. And we can see that all the time. So we are absolutely moving towards a more holistic approach.

Dr Manon (16:54):

And do you think that this realization and the frustration with the current paradigm is that being felt, I mean, it’s easy for me to say it’s being felt by patients, but of course, I’m going to attract the patients that, you know, modern medicine or allopathic medicine didn’t not work for. But, what about physicians in general? How are you seeing the, the discussion happening? Is there, the schooling is very, very intense, you know, and I don’t just mean the education part, but the, the paradigm is, is very strongly, you know, the war against the body or the war against the outside. it’s really very militarylistic in its approach. So very ego based.

Dr Steven Parkes (17:50):

The ego serves a very important purpose and it did in the evolution of what traditional medicine came from. And it is that there’s this pain, this problem is sickness, this illness. And you think back a hundred years ago when there were people who were dying of infectious diseases and that was at that time, the number one reason for the shortened lifespans and that has shifted incredibly. So it served a purpose to come from ego because it’s driven innovation. It’s driven people who want to heal. It’s driven for them to study and work extremely hard, to become more knowledgeable. And now, as we’re moving into an information, age, knowledge is not what people need as a medical student. You can, you can click in five seconds, get the knowledge that you need. I’m not that old as a physician, I’ve been doing this only 15 years, and I still had to keep a note card, write the word down, go look it up in the dictionary later.

Dr Steven Parkes (18:54):

And the time that took the accumulation of knowledge ,is what people used to be rewarded for financial medicine. And that’s gone. Now, what people need are community like human interaction trust a guy, someone that they believe in, and it’s not just the spewing of the information. This is why there’s an advent of mid-levels. And so what you see, what I see happening in people who are traditional trained physicians is there’s a lot of frustration right now, because there was a big investment of time, energy, and a lot of sacrifice to be a physician. And now they’re seeing that maybe we aren’t as valued for that work, and we can complain about it. We can be frustrated and read about it. And I see that, but the people who are starting to step up as the leaders are the ones that are saying, well, how am I going to pivot to actually give community, give society what it’s needing, What its craving,

Dr Steven Parkes (19:53):

And I mean, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen patients come to me and say, do you have a practice? Can I work with you? Because I, you can’t find doctors who are willing to just sit down and make me feel like you have all the time in the world. I don’t have all the time in the world in ER, but I can make people feel that way because I care. And I’ve trained myself to not be flustered by all the noise that’s happening. Even if it’s in the ER, I’m always aware, tuned in. If someone’s having a stroke, I can be there in a minute or a second. But presence is the new paradigm because there’s a healing modality of presence that really can be felt. So that’s where, that’s where we’re moving towards.

Dr Manon (20:33):

And I’m reminded of a quote by Buckminster fuller. I’m probably not going to say the quote exactly. But when there’s a system that’s current, so out of control and so dysfunctional, you don’t change the system by attacking the system and trying to get it to change you, you change the paradigm by building a new system and then people will migrate to it. And that’s what I believe is happening right now with these new healing modalities and or ancient healing modalities. People are going back to what the limitations are in traditional medicine. So everything has a purpose, even the things we’re frustrated with it’s how do we combine and expand our thinking that leads us to new new avenues.

Dr Manon (21:18):

because I often think of the patients I’ve seen that are doctors and are frustrated by the limitations because, it’s true of nurses too, and there’s often not the time or they don’t have the skill of presence that creates the time. I feel like you understand when that time can stand still and it can expand just by being there. And I think that’s that connection that in and of itself is so healing and it’s part of it and also giving an opportunity for, the patients to be heard, you know, to really like get it

Dr Steven Parkes (22:08):

To feel understood is so powerful because it takes the fear out of your own unknown about what’s happening to my body right now. And I really have to emphasize and agree so much with calling presence a skill. It is a skill, it is something anyone can learn with the right guide, the right mentor. But I didn’t even know what presence was until I was at a Tony Robbins event, you know, like four years ago, and I’ve been practicing for 10 years and I never really was taught what presence was and we all, we all have that we just we’ve been conditioned how to not be present with technology. So it doesn’t mean we, we never knew how to do it. It’s just, we’ve gotten away from it.

Dr Manon (22:54):

I am curious to what your opinion or what you think about the, now everything going much more online now, obviously as an emergency medicine, you’re going to be limited to the online version of that, what do you think will increase the connection? because in some ways when you’re on video, you’re very close as well, what’s the impact that you think it might have?

Dr Steven Parkes (23:30):

It’s interesting. I felt myself going through these phases already, and then in a matter of a few months, to be honest of you know, regret and missing of not being able to be in person. And then I’ve been, I’ve been a participant in a couple programs where I was blown away at how we can actually be fully present in an electronic form. I mean, right now I feel very present with you. We’re on the same page and there’s, there’s a connection here. It’s very real because it’s going through electronics. Doesn’t make it significantly less real to not be live presence. So, and the technology will evolve more. I was just seeing someone had built, I’ll leave the name out of it, but had built a three and a half million million dollar studio. So this person could hold a seminar for tens of thousands of people, and to be able to have individual names of everyone there.

Dr Steven Parkes (24:30):

So traditionally you’re on a stage and you can kind of see and manage the crowd and communicate that way, even if you’re a very powerful communicator, but now this person can actually see people’s names anywhere. Everyone has a front row seat, so we can get frustrated about what’s happening and look at what we’re missing and losing out on, or we can choose to focus on what’s the upside and that’s true in life. And it’s true in that question. I see tremendous upside to this if it’s used for good, and if the our needs are communicated effectively because we can be boxed in by this technology, or we can be inspired by this technology. And it comes from the core, which is in our human spirit, how we choose to pursue that. So it’s exciting times, there’s the only thing that’s a guaranteed is change itself. And it is here in full capacity.

Dr Manon (25:23):

Definitely, I mean, my practice is to stay open to what I don’t know yet,So for me, it’s like, I don’t know what that’s going to feel like, and I’ve experienced, like you’re saying right now, I feel completely present to this discussion and to you, and I’ve been in seminars where it’s like, everyone’s got the front row seat and, and it’s interesting you know, yesterday I was doing a podcast thing where I was trying to get attention of podcasters and it’s like, you actually have almost more attention, you know, when you’re in this way. So if you can relax into it and you don’t judge, you’re going to communicate what you need to communicate, you know, from the heart. And maybe it’s a crash course in learning, to be your authentic self. And then we’re all stuck at home, which is it stuck or is it, is it just a new relationship to our, the place that we’re living and, you know, soI just see the opportunity in this.

Dr Manon (26:43):

Have you heard of Zach Bush,

Dr Steven Parkes (26:49):

Zach Bush? Oh, I feel like someone mentioned him recently.

Dr Manon (26:52):

He really makes an incredible correlation of the bigger system, the ecological system and our internal system. And I just thought you might know you’ll, you’ll love him.

Dr Steven Parkes (27:10):

Yeah, that definitely piques my interest. Just what you said.

Dr Manon (27:13):

He really talks about what people are experiencing, but without the politics, without the judgment ,I watched a two hour interview that I ended up feeling actually even more at peace, which is incredible. If you think with…. You know, with everyone’s experience……… How much anxiety unknown change, and these are all triggers to people’s insecurity.

Dr Steven Parkes (27:51):

And that is the key, it’s not imparting security to us. It’s reminding us of some insecurity that hasn’t been looked at, we’ve pushed down and haven’t been aware of, and then it’s brought out and then that seemingly pain, and it can be very real and painful is an opportunity to then address it. And then it’s like what control do I have over this? What can I learn from this? And if needed, who can help me with this? I mean, this is, this is accelerated evolution, really. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s this idea of, of triggers. There is a tendency right now of I’ve been triggered, it’s your fault outside of me, right. And really a trigger is a reflection of what’s in us because when someone causes us to have a reaction, the illusion is it’s known, there are, I can name any situation that was a trigger. And we could look at that situation and talk about how well we gave up our control over that situation and the control over ourselves. So there is an accelerated evolution that’s happening before our eyes, where people are learning, whether they realize it or not. That is what I believe personally, that the purpose of pain and challenges to grow us so that we can be more ,and give more ultimately.

Dr Manon (29:17):

I do feel optimistic that is where we’re going. That there is definitely the suffering and because of the shifts that people are needing, to go through, it brings up so much, and there’s such an opportunity to change, you know, if there’s leaders talking about it and giving that as an option. because that’s definitely not what you hear.

Dr Steven Parkes (29:49):

No, they’re not there to educate and empower. They’re there to get views and and drive attention spans and drive revenues.

Dr Manon (30:03):

I think that’s an interesting point because again, people talk about, Oh, conspiracy ,when I did my law degree, my masters, I was looking at alternative medicines and the role and, you know, how it all fit together and the Flexner report and all that. And I’m looking at this again, it’s interesting. If you look at the ownership of the media and you look at the ownership of the pharmaceutical companies that could benefit and then you look at the idea of public health and you, wonder is that the driving force? And I just, don’t believe it is. that’s my feeling inside me.

Dr Steven Parkes (31:01):

Your describing something that was the driving factor for why I went off and got two more master’s degrees after I was always already a physician because I had to get to the bottom of these questions. And it was very difficult to research them through Google searches. I can go down as far down this rabbit hole as anyone would be interested in, there’s a couple of books that I could refer to. One is called Bad Pharma by Ben Goldacre, This is the profound realization, you know, what I learned in medical school and what I, how I continue to learn in continuing education, medical education, you know, it’s based on information that’s fed to me and we’re able to see studies and there’s always a cry, well, there’s no evidence for that.

Dr Steven Parkes (31:52):

Or this evidence is this. And there is a conflict of interest that even, I would say the vast majority, 90 plus percent of physicians aren’t aware of in how science has performed particularly in the U S I can speak to, and I imagine international and globally, and it is that pharmaceutical companies will run multiple, multiple studies and no one’s required to report the negative studies. They go into a box or they’re destroyed and no one ever sees them. And what does and does not get published, there is an extreme conflict of interest from the editors of prestigious journals. So we could call it conspiracy, but this is, this is why I’ve shifted gears. And why, if push come to came to shove, I’d be willing to step away from a livelihood in order to practice a way that I believe is more sustainable and frankly, more effective at a core holistic level, because that’s what people need right now.

Dr Steven Parkes (32:51):

And it can be scary for many physicians to go against the grain in any, in any modality to go against the grain and what seems to be the status quo. But when, when you look, you will find that there are many people who have the same feeling, and they’re asking the same questions and looking for the same answers and the answers are there. You just have to look at nontraditional channels and often that’s books or individual YouTube channels from someone who was a proven, reliable source, but books are the place that are the most nuanced discussions. It’s not gonna be in headlines. It’s not going to be in social media posts generally. So it’s one of the things just to encourage everyone, if you have interest or you have a feeling, just explore it, see what happens.

Dr Manon (33:36):

Can you and go ahead and give a couple more examples if you could. And maybe what I’ll do when we’re finished. Well I’ll post it also underneath your interview so people can get these these places.

Dr Steven Parkes (33:56):

Yeah, it’s to be I think the number one for me is audible has been so helpful because I can, during the drive, it’s normally downtime. I can knock out a book in a few days. So that’s why I mentioned, you know, that one book bad pharma was a recent one. I just recently looked into I could give you so many different books and other ones just, I recently looked into it’s called a lot of people have heard of Dr. Joseph Mercola. And while I don’t agree with everything that he said, you know, there’s definitely value in a lot of things that he’s done in research. His most recent more recent book is called EMF It talks about electromagnetic fields and I was blown away by this book. I was always taught and raised how I said, radiation is the only radiation that affects ourselves and can cause cancer.

Dr Steven Parkes (34:51):

And actually right behind this screen, there’s a Tesla coil that I use actually for my own healing modalities. And it’s based on the foundations of our bodies, our electromagnetic beans and electromagnetic fields are more than just radio waves go in a little bit of a tangent, but, you know, for decades, we didn’t realize the damage that x-rays can do to the human body. And so similar with smoking, I mean, this went on for 30, 40, 50 years, the cancer and suffering and pain and loss of life from tobacco. And only in the last 15 to 20 years, if we realize that as a humanity. And I am that we are going to look back at these times and see in so many ways that we are practicing cave person medicine, and a lot of ways with, with the types of pharmaceuticals we’re using in certain modalities and the lack of non-conflicted and genuine studies. So yeah, we could probably do a whole podcast on this topic.

Dr Manon (36:01):

I’d love to get into that. I think people don’t need to be afraid of information. And I think this is like we have confirmation bias. So every time, we speak a certain way. I mean, I get slapped in the face. It’s like, Oh, you’ve got confirmation bias. You’re just sharing only the things that serve you. And it’s like, Hmm. Yes, I get it. And I want to look at everything. I mean, I really do want to look at all sides. And just because one perspective is the predominant one, I have certainly learned in history that that doesn’t mean it’s the right one.

Dr Steven Parkes (36:46):

There was something that I’ll share that was passed on to me and the Pranic healing modality, from a teacher, I love and respect so much. He always starts off just the intro class. It’s like, okay, take your hands and kind of make a circle, say, okay, this is, this is one level of truth Okay. Now make a bigger circle. Okay. There’s a second level of truth. And then make a bigger circle. There are many levels of truth to everything. And the normality that we have now is just one level of truth. One person’s perspective is one level of truth. You can have overlapping levels of truth, and it doesn’t make either one of them wrong. We’re always….. The brains always looking for, is this right? Or is this wrong? And the truth is there’s multiple perspectives. And even in things that we’re so sure are wrong, we can, if we look forward, we ask this question, we can find truth often in that rarely are things dichotomous, purely, you know, yes or no, right and wrong.

Dr Steven Parkes (37:48):

So yes, that, that curiosity to always look for another angle with the truth is the pursuit. That’s why we’re in this thing. We call life to learn and figure things out further. So, yeah, it’s, there’s another book here. Actually. I think it’s right here, here called” Curious” this book is phenomenal a few of my physician coaching clients have read this. They said, this is the most transformative life changing book they’ve ever read. And it’s thin. So, and it gets to this piece of, if you can instil a deep curiousness, a curiosity of just wanting to learn more, especially about the things you don’t agree with. I’ve yet to find a downside to it other than it may take some time.

Dr Manon (38:46):

Well, it’s funny. I had a bit of an an eye opening in this whole experience because having looked at history, you start to see patterns which does confirm bias, but it also alerts you to the possibilities of what, you know, what might actually be going on. So the numbers thing is really, I had a a belief that, that on some level numbers are numbers and this entire circumstance opened me up to wait a minute, here, you can work with numbers, you can look at different aspects of it, and that will actually change what you’re studying or what you’re trying to prove. And that’s where I started thinking, well, why is there not more transparency about numbers because numbers are not that complicated,

Dr Steven Parkes (39:49):

This is one of the most profound realizations I had. So, okay. I had a biology degree and then went to medical school and studied statistics in both. I remember taking a psychology statistics course in college that had essays mentioned the system course with essays and then went back to business school and we took statistics again. And then I’m finding myself at Hopkins learning statistics again. And I dunno, whatever, seventh, eighth, 10th statistics course. I finally got the depth where the professor said, listen, when you read a study and you’re shown numbers, you almost think, well, it’s, it’s the number, that’s the real number. And whenever you introduced humans to interpretation of numbers, there is so much bias that can be baked into how the numbers are presented and the numbers themselves that it, it can be so deceiving to challenge that you think that numbers can’t be challenged, but when you can actually say, well, what’s the context of these numbers?

Dr Steven Parkes (41:01):

Where did these numbers come from? What is the interest of the person presenting me this numbers? Is this the number that really matters for this scenario? Or is it a ratio? We always talk about what’s the denominator, so I’ll just use this because it’s going on now. We have a case to count well cases compared to what’s the dominator. Is it cases per tests? Is it cases per population? These things make a profound difference to the meaning of these numbers. And heck I had so much schooling. I don’t know what to do with it. And I didn’t have that realization until the third year graduate degree. And you don’t need a graduate degree to have this realization, what you need is common sense and the ability to be curious and inquisitive and just does it, doesn’t have to be a problem that you’re questioning things.

Dr Steven Parkes (41:54):

I see it as a huge asset. it is a diligence that I would suggest is going to serve anyone. And just when you see numbers, always question, you know, is, this something that makes sense? It doesn’t make sense and dig a little deeper or ask someone else. And if you’re looking for a different answer and that’s someone else, and always try to understand as many angles as we can. because I just had a Facebook post on yesterday. I was replying to someone about this concept of the news. Isn’t helpful to us. And someone replied with an idea of, well, the numbers are numbers and talking about this very issue. And I think part of my response was the numbers are the most deceiving, apparent and presumed fact because we think the numbers and a lot of us are scared of numbers. You know, whether it’s finances or we haven’t been trained in statistics. But we are inherently trained in trust and we all have these little alarm bells that go off, if something doesn’t quite make sense. And when you learned to listen to those or you just give yourself permission to listen to those it leads us, I think, a productive path.

Dr Manon (43:05):

That ability, that critical thinking is, and it’s funny, a lot of people think critical thinking …….and it’s like,I’m a super joyful, happy person. And I do lots of critical thinking. I question just about everything. You know, I think my first word is why. And I think that’s to embrace ……. keep learning in that sense, you know, and trust that piece, if it doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t, you know, like there’s, you know, and instead of saying, well, no, they wouldn’t do that. That’s like the empty conspiracy theory. That’s another belief like, you know,

Dr Steven Parkes (44:10):

In coaching, we call them BS for belief systems.

Dr Manon (44:17):

Well, look, I think our time is definitely up, but it’s been so wonderful having this conversation with you, Steven I think hopefully it will help lots of people who, who are in fear or just confused.

Speaker 2 (44:34):

Pleasure is mine. This is why both of us are doing this work. And anyone watching, I encourage you to consider, you know, think about what part really stuck with you and one or two parts and who else could benefit from the information that you’ve learned, or the realization that you just experienced and just offer that, you know, you don’t have to ever push something on someone, just say, Hey, you know, I was thinking about you during this time. And it might be something maybe if I found it valuable, maybe you’d find this valuable to that’s the kind of sharing that that has a ripple effect. And it changes the world when we, when we start sharing from them.

Dr Manon (45:13):

Well, thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (45:16):

Thank you. Alright, we’ll talk soon.