And during that time I didn’t have a great experience. And so …… when you’re young, you kind of form these ideas about, what I want to do that or not. So fast forward business, I went into business. I actually, you know, had another career in fashion. I started, so always working with needles and at some point it was really like, this is raw. this is not, like, it doesn’t really feed me. I’m not contributing in a way. And I was always interested in like health and healing, just not that whole, you know, I go to medical school and what happened was, is I had remembered that I had taken a class in massage. It was one of those weekend courses. Now they have, and I really loved it. I was in my early twenties, but then when I looked at, you know, like, Oh, maybe I should go and be a massage therapist.

Tsao Lin Moy (04:36):

And it was like, Oh, I can’t do it in a year. Like, Oh, it’s too much, you know, to go back to school. And when you’re younger you’re like, Oh, too much school. Right. but later on I was like, you know, I really liked that. Let me look at this again. And I looked and I was like, Oh, it’s only a year. And so that’s what I did. I went back to school and then while I was there and learning about Eastern foundations, it like, it was clear that I needed to do more, that there was so much more. And you know, as you get a little older, you start to see like that there is more than your physical body. There are more things that are spiritual, that are not religious, they’re more working in, in Chinese medicine is also very using a metaphoric language, which also gets you out of that scientific kind of labeling or pathologizing and allows you to to tap into, you know, what we know is kids like it, like children know.

Speaker 2 (05:53):

And so that is, you know, that was the journey and it was kinda like, Oh, you know, I can be helping people in a way. And then also it’s a field and also what you do where the longer you practice, the better you get. I mean, because it is experiential medicine. And so each one of your patients, you learn, you help them. And by helping them you learn and you have to figure it out. It’s not that, it’s not cookie cutter at all. There are principles. And so this is something that I will love, you know, like continue and, and constantly study and, and get better. And because every time you get better, you get better results, you know? And so that feeds you know, that model. And that’s the same that I wish for, my patients and for, people, anybody who will listen is really like you work on your health and it’s this whole journey of cultivation, right. And in all areas, Not just, Oh, I take a vitamin, but really like, wow.like really aligning yourself, right?

DrManon (07:11):

Absolutely. and I love that you say it’s like it. Yes. It’s experiential and you know, and I teach practitioners, My methodology and they want the answers, you and it’s like, it’s very interesting. If I were to teach the cookie cutter version of what I do, they could never grow into bringing it to the next level. I’m not saying don’t share what I know, but it’s like the art of the practice is what builds the knowledge, the confidence, the everything that we learn as practitioners. Yes, absolutely. That you’re sending that…….. The parallel I’m seeing so clearly is that’s what, the incoming practitioner needs to do. They need to see it as a journey as well. And it’s not one dimensional take this or I’m going to stick these needles here and we’re done. It doesn’t work that way.

Tsao Lin Moy (08:23):

Yeah, totally. And actually, you know, when you were talking about teaching, so for a long time, for about 16, 17 years, I used to teach acupuncture at college. And there was always this, there is that part where you do work within a framework, right? So in the very beginning, certain principles, it’s a little more rigid because they’ve got to like kind of get that knowledge. Yeah. But it’s not set in stone. It’s really like they have to digest it. And so what I would do is, and this is also, you know, for anybody who’s thinking about it, you know, the first when you first learn, I would draw a picture of a flower, right on the board. I would draw this picture of a flower and I would say this is the structure of what we’re learning. And right now we’re going to colour in the line.

Tsao Lin Moy (09:21):

We need to stick within these parameters, right? And use that as the guide. And then when you get more experience in clinic, you start to colour a little bit outside those lines, right? Just a little bit. You start to kind of go out a little bit that it’s not like this is the protocol, but you go, okay, I’m thinking of this as a protocol but for this person I need to adjust it. Right? like I have to take in that this 60 year old woman is, has some underlying, you know, with a as you age versus a 25 year old guy who came in with a skateboarding injury. You know, both have a knee problem, but we have to consider what’s the same and then what’s not the same. And then later on you’ll be able to kinda like see things differently and , free hand draw that flower and colour it in and, and use other things too. Once you gain enough experience, then you start to really colour outside the, or you don’t need the lines so much, you just have to get the general shape.

DrManon (10:37):

I relate. It’s like, it’s almost………. Then you see the garden……..then you actually can, then you see the shapes are still a flower,

Tsao Lin Moy (10:47):

But you know, it’s different. Like it’s the colours or you know, it’s and yeah, so I would use that as the metaphor cause they’re like, well, why can’t I do this? Or I want to do that. Or like, okay, first you need the foundation, then you can, explore.

DrManon (11:04):

my analogy is first you become a cook and then you become a chef.You know, and it is a bit that you’ve got to first, you know, understand that this is, these are the ingredients because otherwise it’s too hard. Right? You, expect people to be, you know,………… and actually I was going to ask you to intuitive, where do you feel or do you feel that there’s a place in which you Intuit what needs to happen? Where on the path do you feel that that happens in training? Or for the practitioner?

Tsao Lin Moy (11:42):

Okay. So there is I believe people who are going into the healing arts, they have, it’s like that they have whatever that is in them. It’s almost like this kind of urge. They know something, right? And you don’t want to lose sight of that energy. So, the, you know, when you have like, Oh, we do it this way, that way it, stamps down. And you have to also kind of listen to what’s your first impression of that person? So when I would teach students and they go, Oh, you know, the intake, they have this, this, this, this, and this, there, this, this, this……..And I go, okay,! the first thing that you notice about that person, what do you notice? They’re tired, right? What else is going on? Where’s their energy? Like take you, you need to like kind of, because that’s also going to inform you as well based on all of the intake and the signs and symptoms.

Tsao Lin Moy (12:51):

But you also have to draw out like what is that impression that you have that’s coming forward. And then the intuition comes in is the more experience you have that the the information filters through in a way that it kind of like sets it up. So I’ve used, I usually think of intuition is like much higher form of after you have a lot of training, it’s like you have this super computer that you put it in and then it like reveals like what this is.. And so that’s where I always think of intuition and also from our own experience we have personal experience, which makes us expert really working with certain people. Right. It come into your practice.

DrManon (13:50):

That’s interesting. because there’s definitely schools of thought or, and people, individuals who believe that intuition is coming from elsewhere. And you know, it’s interesting, I do see that and that’s one of the things I I will say to students, it’s like, I love the way you put, you framed at the beginning. You come in with some knowing that there’s something and you don’t want to quell that because that’s what allows you to see the bigger picture. And at the same time, it’s you, you need to build the knowledge so that it becomes this huge information of which then we draw much faster. The answers, right?

Tsao Lin Moy (14:39):

That’s what guides you to go like, Oh, I’m looking at this person and I’m picking something up and I just need to, that’s going to direct me of where else I need to look……………. I’m sensing something about…….. And you can, the interesting thing is, is that when you encounter a patient and you’re like, wow, you know, this person seems so familiar. Like what is it about that? And oftentimes there can be something about them that you had encountered with someone else completely. And you’re, you’re clearly or other than conscious mind is picking up that aspect, right? And you’re like, huh, this person, there’s something about them that reminds me of someone. And then that also goes like, Oh, you know what? I’m going to check their thyroid. There’s something about that I’m looking at. They’re like, there’s something that’s telling me. And then later on you can reverse engineer and be like, Oh,, IThats why i thought that ……..I noticed this little thing.

DrManon (15:51):

so as you learnt Chinese medicine, how did that go down in your family?

Tsao Lin Moy (15:57):

Well actually, my father didn’t know. he didn’t realize until I was in my second year.And it happened to be a colleague….. I was, I was doing massage when I was going through school. Right. And I had given a gift certificate to my dad and his friend. And so this fellow was like working on my father and he said like, Oh, so what do you think? You know, Tsao is in acupuncture school. What do you think about that? Like, isn’t that exciting? And he was like, Oh, really? Huh. And then later he’s like, I heard this thing. Is that true? But he was very so coming from China, were, there was a lot of, as you like epidemics, right?

Tsao Lin Moy (16:59):

He came over in the late forties, but you know, Hong Kong, China has had like several you know, major flus right. In their history. And in an actually in the history of China, they’ve had, like over the past 2000 years, they’ve had at least, you know, 250 epidemics. Right? so he was very much he didn’t have a lot of faith in you know, herbs and he thought like, Oh, this is a lot of superstition around it. Right? So once you go into the, the medical school and you see the miracles, you know, people like practically on the brink of death, they get pulled out from the brink of death that he didn’t have much faith in it. Right? He would go, it’s not a proven science, it’s not a proven science. So it’s interesting because he was also very traditional, He would eat like traditional foods and, but which is also part of the medicine, Like he didn’t necessarily think of it is medicine, As how you pull it together because it was part of the culture. So here in the West we think of things as like, Oh, it’s this way of eating or that like it’s very separate.

DrManon (18:35):

Correct. Yeah. And it’s not even part of the medical training. So he probably thought, Oh, it’s separate in that way. Right. From his perspective,

Tsao Lin Moy (18:45):

Because he was thinking of it as like a Western medicine comparing the two versus this kind of whole part of the thinking that’s there. And, of course there’s the Daoist aspect, which is not Confucius. Right? So it depends on how you think about, you know, really where like the, the spirituality aspect of it.and if you believe that the spirituality has something to do with medicine and in the West it’s kind of pulled completely out because it would be considered a breach with religion.

DrManon (19:26):

And magic. That’s very, very interesting discussions. So, tell us more Like, what actually happened? Cause this is such a perfect example of how you would try and connect completely disparate views of, of reality. One because for him the food was just part of the culture and yet like you’re right from a holistic perspective, it’s part of, of the medicine, right?

Tsao Lin Moy (20:04):

Just part of those principles. It’s like the principles of, of doing things. So I don’t know if you have a large Asian population where you are, you do. Okay. So if you notice a lot of the older people, if they may go out into the park, which I always find funny, it’s like, Oh, you know, all these older people, they go to the park and here in New York you can see them along the East river. And you know, early in the morning when I take my daughter to school and you’d see like these older folks in the park there or in Chinatown in the park and they’re all doing like Xi gong and Tai Chi outside, right outside. And it’s this idea of really, you do it with the energy of the earth, you know, the rising of the sun and you’re facing East.

Tsao Lin Moy (20:59):

So you’re getting that energy in and breathing and becoming and becoming one. Right. Kind of like feeling that energy and move it. And I don’t know if they think that’s what they’re doing or they are just doing it as like a social, they all go together, they move and then afterwards they’ll go and go to a coffee shop and have coffee and some bows or something. But it is a practice that keeps them agile, Keeps their chi flowing. Correct. They may say like, Oh, it keeps me from being stiff. Right? But in the Chinese medicine aspect of it, it’s really about getting your chi flow. It’s that mind body connection, the connection to nature, like really like taking that in and being a part of it. Right? But culturally, I think even during the, the the cultural revolution, and I’d have to double check this, but I’m pretty sure that people were still, if I remember all the images in the sixties, that you’d see all of the people out all at the same time doing these exercises together because it was, it was like community, right?

Tsao Lin Moy (22:22):

It was part of these ideas. But it’s also part of principles of, you know, moving your energy and really calming the mind and making that connection.

DrManon (22:35):

And it’s funny because the studies on longevity of life and all that community and connection is a huge part of life. You know, there’s the mobility, but there’s also that piece of it too. So it’s funny. So what I’m seeing is here’s your father, he’s an eight standard medical doctor yet. Well maybe that has changed, but

Speaker 2 (23:00):

He passed away a couple of years ago he was always pretty like, Oh straight like pretty standard medical doctor you’re saying? Yeah. And yet without realizing it in a sense he adapted just because culturally it’s what he was raised with habits that are really essential to holistic health, you know? Right. Without. So, so what, what’s left? Do you, so you’ve got all this part here and then you’ve got what he, what he actually did in medicine. Right. Which is interesting because it was at the consciousness, you know, it was kind of without being conscious of it, if that’s what was going on, it was like kind of like habitual not but like, and so I think, I mean the difference that I would notice because also as a child I would like go on rounds with him in the hospital. And I think, you know what I noticed about him, that’s that there was a lot of compassion there. like to go on your day off and you’d visit the patients. He would also when it was around Chinese new year, he would make sure to check them out of the hospital, right? Because it’s bad luck to be in the hospital and nobody’s going to visit you for the new year. So the idea was, you know, check them out. He used to have the scale in his office be like five pounds heavier because it’s a very Asian thing. You know, when you have older people, they come to see you and they lost weight. That’s not good because the idea of prosperity is really that you’re, you know, you’ve got a little weight on and if you’re old and you’ve been sick and your weight, you know, that can be an alarm. So, you know, they’d go to the doctor and instantly, you know, they would be a little bit heavy. Like they would have, gained some strength there. So he would do these things. You know, I’m actually as like first time I’m talking about this ……………..you know, to make his patients feel better. Right. Using like culturally, like that’s what, yeah. And that’s also a big part that is also reintroduce now that the doctor patient relationship actually matters.

DrManon (25:51):

relationship is so key. Right? Well I feel like I brought you to tears, but it’s like a, it’s a good, this is a, yeah, it’s a beautiful yeah, realization too…… So you were talking about, you know, that relationship in the classics we call it, which is the yellow emperor’s classic. I don’t know if you studied that, but it’s considered the first real text that’s written right about Chinese medicine and acupuncture. And it talks about these levels of like the doctor who just treats the symptom will only treat one thing right. And then the, you know, how far the physician can go in terms of, will the patient get better, you and then as it goes to when the doctor treats also the emotion level, that is also like another level.

Tsao Lin Moy (27:05):

But really the healing is when the practitioner can treat the spirit level. Like, so that is really about that connection and it has to do with the practitioner being I wanna say evolved but, but really like understanding within themselves in order to be able to treat at that level because if you have evolved yourself, then you won’t be able to see like the demons in somebody else. Right. Like you have done the battle a little bit to know what you’re battling.

DrManon (27:49):

Exactly Very interesting. So when you had a, fabulous experience when you were or scientist, but what you said something that I couldn’t write it down ………..something……you said what was interesting with Chinese medicine was the way I interpreted it is something like it’s a different way of looking at diagnosis in a sense. It opened things up for you. It’s not your words. Those are my interpretation. I didn’t get to write the sentence down, but there was something that I wanted to come back to.

Tsao Lin Moy (28:28):

Was it about the metaphoric language, metaphoric language? That was exactly it. Can you expand on that a little bit? Sure. so if you, you know how we speak about ourselves and our experience is we can like be contract in the language, right? So and I’m sure you probably like you teach this with your students or where we’re teaching it is if you ask somebody about their pain and they go, Oh, it hurts, it hurts. It hurts. If you ask them to describe really what the sensation is that it changes because it changes the, you know, how you are treating them and then they connect to really much more in detail what they are experiencing and then can, are able to communicate and using metaphor just in the way of something like poetry, like kind of transports us that being able to use this as a, like the language as a way of describing what we’re experiencing.

Tsao Lin Moy (29:48):

So for instance, what is chi? We can just talk about it. If I were to say, Oh, it’s air, everyone’s all air, or Oh, it’s just energy. it loses because it’s in a different, it’s in the language of our understanding. But when you use the language in Chinese medicine that has a lot of metaphor to understanding that you know about the lungs are look like like trees, right? Like, they look like trees and if you understand how, you know, trees breathe, inhale, like take in the air and, and move then and you imagine your lungs like trees, that it’s very different. Like you can do that and, and understand like, Oh yes, I understand. Like it’s just much broader. And so like directing your mind of like how, you know, if somebody is a rigid, we call them like very woodlike, like, or like a kind of a kind of personality of that.

Tsao Lin Moy (30:57):

And people understand immediately what that is because they can say like, Oh yeah, I can understand that they have those characteristics of that. And then what does that mean? You know, that kind of characteristic. And so it’s much richer. And I’m not labeling right? because in the West, very disease oriented, very broken, right, versus imbalance, right? You’re not broken. You have an imbalance. And that changes because something is broken. You don’t know if you fix it. And if you fix it, is it ever really better versus the idea of a movement and transformation and that’s what it is, is that the language also very much describes at much more accurately our felt experience and what’s happening because we are a part of nature, we’re not really separate. We are, we interact with it. And so I think that makes a really big difference of being able to think outside of our language. And then it’s like you can fix it in a way, understand how to balance it and then you take it in yourself. And that is very powerful because you think of yourself differently, not the same old ideas.

DrManon (32:40):

Also people were, visualizers it really helps to, to see, you know, if you have too much fire and then you know, or even going through the five element theory, you can actually really understand how, you know, how the disbalance is there and you can, you can almost literally,…….you would, you know what makes sense if you share that. And I think, am I hearing that when you are in process of treating people,, you engage that level of consciousness? Is that what you do?

Tsao Lin Moy (33:19):

when I have a conversation with a patient as whatever their experience, you know, I can talk about it. I was like, Oh, you know, in Chinese medicine this would be described as this. So for instance, with fertility, I’ll use that as an example that you know, when, you know, women want to have a baby and it’s not happening and they feel that anxiety. Like it’s like, so like Ugh, you know, this tightness in their chest, the throat. And that’s very, we call very livery very like the M…… That is invading, it’s kind of like taking over, like roots are kind of like restricting this flow of energy and, but there is this connection between the heart and the uterus and that’s called the bowl ma It’s known as the, gateway, this vessel, is a freeway that connects those two.

Tsao Lin Moy (34:30):

And so that needs to be open, you know, to kind of receive that energy coming through. And if that’s blocked and they can feel it, you know, the more stressed and worried they are, that actually does affect their cycle.. And for, for women that have had, children that when you know, if they think about their child and they’re still lactating, they’ll start to lactate, right? Or if they worry a lot, they could, skip a cycle, Our connection to our emotions will affect our cycle. Like very much so. So but how does that work? Well, explaining that, with that connection there, it makes a lot of sense because that is kind of the energy pathway is what is there. So we’re describing these energy pathways and how they move and you can feel them, you can feel that this is the Chi is moving around and they will feel it. They’ll be like, wow, you know, feel from one needle to the next. They’ll feel, you know, something happening in one area and then they’ll feel it in another area as the energy starts to move. And that it’s very interesting experience for them, you know, to feel themselves to be aware like wow, I do have ………..like so without getting too lecturing, you know, with a patient to the level of, what would be appropriate and relevant for them.

DrManon (36:27):

I’ve found that it’s just sometimes it’s just one little connection that, you know, that just allows to relax into what’s actually happening and you know, and I think I mean again, it’s, it’s part of the doctor patient relationship. Rather than take the expert attitude, I know exactly what to do. I’ll take your pulse, look at your tongue and off you go stick some needles in. because I know what I’m doing. Right. It’s like that I don’t think, I mean it probably works, but it’s not the same experience of healing I think then when you engage the patient in their process, you know?

Tsao Lin Moy (37:08):

I mean it’s, there is that connection they call …….. So your your right hand and your left hand, they call like your Yasha is like at one you’re needling and then the other one is feeling you are actually creating this kind of energy loop, Which is important for your energy to be really clear.and very present, for your patient and connecting with them. And so this is what I notice is that, you know, I will ask for the feedback like do you feel this is this moving? Or, or I might even tell them, say, listen, when I do this point, it’s a very strong point. You might feel something moving in one direction or the other, you know, let me know if you feel it or when you feel it. So I just get some feedback as to is this accurate? Because that will also inform like, okay, the next thing I’m going to do, it’s a very dynamic experience. And so I work personally, I work a little bit differently than TCM. I could have an idea of what I want to do and then I need to palpitate and check that this is making changes before I actually will needle certain points because stuff starts to move. And so it’s a very dynamic process.

DrManon (38:45):

, it’s fascinating what you’re saying , because I’m definitely, I mean we’ve been trained in it and I’ve, you know, gone to different Chinese medical doctors practicing differently as well, you know, and it’s it’s fascinating because the work I do works really a lot on the fascia. That’s what I teach. And, and of course Meridian lines and fascia, it’s like it’s, we’re done with the same language here and thats the connection, the introecption of actually asking and feeling what you feel is also part of the allowing for things to move. And, and as you check in to feel the change that’s going to inform the next step. So there is a procedure that one might follow, but that’s where that nuances and the feedback and the involvement of the patient, you know, so it’s fascinating to hear you speak of it this way.

Tsao Lin Moy (39:44):

Yeah. I mean the fascia is a a discussion, are you familiar with Helaine……..L.aunjervine?… Who’s done? So I actually participated in some of when she did a little bit of research on like needling technique where we, I mean, I don’t know if this is interesting for people, you know, there was a needle and there was something that was measuring the torque so that we were looking at the different ways of stimulating the needle and actually what that effect was having underneath the skin, you know, and that sensation that what they call the Duchy sensation. Like what exactly was it? And she was she was measuring, and I know she’s written a lot of papers on it to kind of look at, you know, what is actually creating that movement. And of course the fascia is extremely responsive. and I, I tell my patients that they feel the needle grabbing. And you know, once the needle goes in the skin layer, little fibers kind of come up and grab the needle and go, what is that? And we’ll kind of like squeeze it a little bit. Right? And you’ll feel that kind of tension and then they go, Oh, it’s okay. And then you’ll start to, it’ll start to release or suddenly, you know, it’ll start to move. The movements, you know, begins to happen, you know, in response to the stimulation and everything starts to readjust underneath. And it’s pretty fascinating. The fascial work, it’s amazing. I love it. I love getting it done.

DrManon (41:38):

That’s fun. So, I mean, our time’s almost up, but I want to, one last thing that you want to share, maybe to somebody who has, has maybe never done acupuncture, why would they consider it?

Tsao Lin Moy (41:57):

It’s a strange question, but i,ll go for it. Because you know, it is extremely a very fast way of tapping into the nervous system. Right? And, and so the moment the needle goes in again you know, your body is responding to the stimulus of it and immediately the effects are taking place. Like something is happening right away. Versus, you know, if you go to a regular doctor, they talk to you, they hand you a prescription and you kind of go, well, nothing really changed. The stress response is, you know addressed immediately going into the parasympathetic nervous system of the rest and digest, which is so important for people. They, they can’t relax. It’s very hard. And what I found is, you know, when someone for the first time comes that they are just so relaxed.

Tsao Lin Moy (43:10):

They’re like, I’m so relaxed. And I’m like, that is the experience that we should have when we are relaxed. But we don’t realize that even when we’re resting, we’re not really relaxed. Our body is not going into that state. And so I think, you know, somebody who has never done it before. Should definitely try it because there’s really no side effects. If you, you can still do other therapies, you could still take your medication, you can do all of those things. It’s not going to interfere with what you’re doing. It can only really support.

DrManon (43:57):

Okay. Well, thank you so much. Are you welcome. It was lovely having you here and so informative. Those are great questions. That’s why I don’t prepare. It’s always fun to see where it goes, you know? So, but thank you so much for taking your time.

Speaker 2 (44:15):

Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you.

 

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