… my first step into holistic health. And even that was like, Whoa, of course it isn’t that way anymore. But you know, I just felt so limited and not being able to talk about the body and not being able to talk about the relationship of how we think to how we treat ourselves physically and emotionally, how we treat other people. So it was just very limiting to me.

Dr Manon (08:13):

So when you say the body and in that context what can you like expand on that? Just so it’s really clear what, what you mean, because on some level it can, you know, in conventional medicine they talk about the body, right. But what do you mean? because I think we’re probably on the same page,

Dona Airey (08:51):

There’s a chemical, even chemically in the brain is where our emotions are and people don’t realize that. And the brain has a direct connection with, with all the physical parts of the body, the muscles, the organs and everything. And I think one of the real simplistic ways of talking about it, I think is when we get into a fear state. In fact, I talk about this as an example you’re out in the wild and a little animal is being chased by a big predator. And so they run, run, run, and then the little animal plays dead and the protector comes over and smells it and thinks it’s dead and goes off. I always was curious about that. How could that happen? Why wouldn’t he know he was alive? Well, the cortisol levels from the adrenals shoot out into the body and I’m sure with the animal that has a certain smell.

Dona Airey (09:51):

And so then when the animal is safe, it gets up and it jumps around and it’s like get rid of this cortisol. We don’t do that. We, you know, and, and people don’t realize, well, yeah, you have to move the physical body because all these chemicals have now been released from our emotions, but what do we do? We get quiet, you know, we don’t, we don’t address the chemical things that are going in on our bodies, how the different organs are affected by how we think. And the meridians, I mean, there’s so many direct correlations between the meridians and the organs and how we think, and, and on the chemical things of the body aren’t addressed how we move is an addressed.

Dr Manon (10:46):

I was just, looking at the vagus nerve, it’s like 80% of it is afferent, right.sensing our organs and information to our brain.We respond. So, we don’t realize how are our actual internal body or organs have a voice..

Dr Manon (11:20):

No, they’re separate like, Oh, I have a brain and I have a body

Dr Manon (11:25):

And neuro transmitters are made in the gut, or 70% of them anyway. So if we’re, if our gut is in dysbiosis, it can’t create, the neurotransmitters that we need in a healthy way.So it’s definitely a cycle where the body is intimately involved in all of our States, not just fear and not just anxiety, but wellness, all our happy hormones, everything.

Dona Airey (12:03):

Yeah. And you know, lately, anyway, you hear about the gut being the second brain. Sometimes I think it’s the first brain, because we dont realize all that’s going on in our small and large intestines that affect us emotionally and how our emotions affect our, our colon and our intestines. And they literally go out into the body. They’re not just a tube that carries things through, you know, it’s a living being, it’s a living organ, both of those and things do go in and out of it. And even that people don’t even realize how we affect it and how it affects us.

Dr Manon (12:47):

there’s a lot of work out there on this, but I agree. It is the first brain, because still the age of seven, that’s where all our reactions are really gut reactions. It’s our gut. That’s literally responding. Then we, you know, we start using that prefrontal cortex and making sense of this and putting a context and, you know, and that’s why so much happens earlier. And yet we have a memories of sorts, but they’re largely emotional memories in that sense. So can you expand on that?

Dona Airey (13:32):

Yeah, I was excited to hear your part in that, because I think that you understand you have the verbiage and the understanding more of the neurotransmitters and that sort of thing. I can talk about it more on a behaviour on an emotional aspect. But one reason I was so excited to be talking to you is because of your knowledge about the brain and the you know, the things that you talk about that my verbiage is missing, you know?

Dr Manon (14:03):

Oh sure. I mean, we,…..it’s a conversation. That’s the whole point of this always. And I’ve got to say that the verbiage can help, but I have noticed that myself being there in practice, what you see in what’s happening clinically is to me, the biggest teacher, it’s almost as if you get to learn the verbiage afterwards to explain phenomena, that experience is it’s showing us. And so when I was very busy in my practice, I didn’t have time to really get all of this stuff. And by the time I had graduated and I’m in practice, most of all these theories we were told in medical school have evolved and have changed and things that I was told that don’t, that that are not possible became more possible. And so there’s been a real opening, not that that in standard allopathic medicine, there are necessarily solutions, but you couldn’t say that nerves don’t regenerate or statements that when I was taking, you know, pathology physiology and all those things, they were like, absolute.

Dr Manon (15:27):

So that’s what happens. And even when you look at the, the evolution of the fascia, which was the saran wrap bubble wrap , but when you had an operation, you just took it out and discarded it without understanding how complex it is and how it’s really our living matrix that puts everything together that signals, you know, biological, physiological signals, as well, as chemical signals for all our neurons and neuro-transmitters to work. I mean, it has free nerve endings, which impact us and how we hold trauma in ourselves and our body in our actual body, not just as a thought So I’ve learned more from experience and then later found out that’s true. That explains that. So I think we’re, we’re constantly in that process, you know, so let’s talk and I’m happy to share whatever comes up, but I want to learn from you also, what is your understanding of emotions? How does that work? What are they like? Let’s explore that.

Dona Airey (16:51):

One thing I want to mention before that is there’s a process called brain spotting. And I think that’s a good explanation sort of, of what happens also in that in the limbic system is where we house our memories and trauma. And so if, if something happens as a child, let’s say, and or any age, and we don’t deal with it. And so I can encapsulate it in that limbic system, not moving, not doing anything. And the process of brain spotting is to get the eyes to wherever we look in our eyes reaches a different spot in the, in the limbic system. And so what we do is we find the spot to look at dealing with a certain issue or trauma or something. And so, while you’re looking at that system, you’re also talking about it.

Dona Airey (17:56):

And then of course, where is it in your body? And so then we do a body scan. And with that the body scan, whatever might come up, it might be the stomach. It might be tension. It might be a pain, you know, whatever comes up, you just work with that area, forget about what it’s about, you know, in terms of talking about it, you go right into the physical and you work with that physical sensation or movement or whatever it is. And that’s so fascinating because the healing is that’s where the healing is not in talking about it, although there’s a piece for that too, obviously, but the, the physical part of emotions are where the healing is in terms of how we hold on to things. So when I talk about emotions being physical you know, it’s a hard, it’s a, it’s a hard jump for people to go, well, you know, I’m worried about this.

Dona Airey (19:01):

I’m worried about the answer, okay. Do the body. And I do this even without brain spotting. because I did this even before I knew about that system, but it’s like to be able to go into the body and work on it in a physical way. So you’re not caught up in what the story is or what the happened because we, like you said, we, we hold our emotions, we hold our trauma, we hold things that have happened in our bodies. And when we don’t do anything with it, they don’t have room to move. They don’t have room to heal. And so a different way to work with the body even by yourself, which is what I like to teach is you know, if you somebody might say, well, I I’m trying to think of an example.I guess take something simple. I get scared when I’m going to fly. And so you know, we do some of the eye things and we talk a little bit and then we go into the body and where that fear is held is where we work. And by working, I mean, it’s fascinating to me by just work. ing on the physical things …….

Dr Manon (20:27):

let’s go through this…………..So, because fear flying is a thought, right. But yeah, it’s a, it’s a decision to basically decide, I am afraid of flying. It can come from experience or not. So that’s the first thing. So we have a thought then what is the process exactly. To connect that thought to an emotion?

Dona Airey (21:02):

It’s the opposite? In fact, in my work, I separate them. Okay. Now let’s talk about, you know, let’s start out on what you want. Let’s talk about the fear of flying and what the hell that is for you, because people then get connected. And as they talk about it, something’s going on in the body…… At a point, I say, okay, let’s do a body scan and, and find out what’s going on inside. And so like I said, it might be you know, my heart is pounding really hard. Okay. So we’d let go of the thought, right? Don’t go through the thought again. We stay with that physical part, because as you said, that can happen either way, you can have an experience, then that experience is caught in the body. And so we, then we have thoughts about it.

Dona Airey (21:55):

Or we can just say, you know, I saw something on the news and a plane blew up. So now I’m afraid to fly. So there, it started with a spot. But once again, whether it starts in the body as an experience, or thoughts starts as a spot, it’s the same thing. It’s still in the body and it’s within the body that gets healed. And so both are important because people understand thoughts. They know how to think about things and that learning curve of going into the body and working with it. You know, I’ve had people in my therapy and as, I’ve worked with this take a month, to kind of get it because you can’t, it’s not a checklist. You know, you can’t say you do this, this and this, like a thought and an experience. So you have to facilitate this experience of physical illness. And then one day, Oh, I get it. But you just said, you know, people will say, it’s not working or it’s getting worse. And trust me, just keep going, keep going, keep going. That physical sensation of movement happens. And then their thoughts start changing. Oh, well, I’m not afraid of that anymore. Right. And so that relationship, no matter where it comes from, the healing itself begins with the physical emotion of it. Is that, I don’t know if I answered your question.

Dr Manon (23:25):

And it is very similar to what I do with people through the bodywork reboot and Bowen therapy in general, because I do place the context of healing. So I always, like, it’s not a vacuum. I would talk about what’s going on, which brings you to a level of awareness, no judgment. Right. It doesn’t matter. It’s all good. And then they have true physical, you know, shoulder. That’s not working, whatever. There’s always some other physical things, not all of us, but often, the moment they, the body releases an emotion,, that’s where the work happens and it, and like it, they may know it’s there, or it may be unconscious and associated to another physical symptom. Sure. Yes. But you cannot release the physical symptom without releasing the associated emotion.

Dr Manon (24:43):

For me, the beauty of doing bodywork, it’s less complicated. You don’t have to…………You just touch the body and by touching it, you’re giving ………….. and again, it’s, the therapeutic relationship is important as well. Then people need to feel that they’re safe because often with traumatic experience, they’re in a protection mode, which is normal. That’s what the body does to survive. So it’s a survival mode reaction. But what, what happens though is that too, you have to look at, because the work I do is physical touch. It’s not like hands on like massage or anything like that. It’s very light with spaces in between so that the person can, or the body can integrate the information, that space in between and the trust that’s happening by changing the environment of the fascia that also affects the, the interpretation of the emotion. So I was taught people, let an emotion. It’s like, it only takes 90 seconds. That’s what I’ve found when I’ve tried to measure it. If you, if you don’t judge it and take your mind right. Out of the picture. Explaining what’s going on, just stay with what’s going on. It clears in about 90 seconds and it’s done. Right. It’s got like all the tentacles are gone. so that’s what my experience of emotion is. And that’s pretty well, you know, the sophisticated way I explain it to people.

Dona Airey (26:40):

Yeah. Like I said, I did craniosacral

Dona Airey (26:44):

And I did Jin Shindo acupressure and some other body things. And what you’re describing is, certain touches, release and integrate at the same time, it’s like releases and then integrates with the wholeness of whatever is going on in into the body. And so the difference in what I’m doing now is I don’t do any hands on, which is why I can do online so easily because it’s really one a teaching of what our emotions and how we experienced them. And then I can teach people how to work with their physical emotions within themselves as they occur. And so that’s sort of my, what my process does at this point. Like I said, which is why I felt like I could go online pretty easily. Whereas I’ve been in an office for 32 years. And you know, part of that is a personal thing. I want, I’d like to travel a little bit. I’d like to go to the beach and like the, you know free up some of my time. And actually, as you know, that’ll make me a better therapist anyway.

Dr Manon (28:09):

And so many therapists have this idea that in principle, they’re all for balance. In reality, they come so much from service that they forget that self-care, they forget themselves in it, you know, so good for you

Dona Airey (28:26):

Me having to take a vacation or this, this is a lifestyle change for me and I’m excited about it. And it’s made me more excited than my work actually.

Dr Manon (28:43):

Yeah, absolutely. Now the more you give love to yourself and the more there is, there’s no scarcity of that. So I want to get a little clarity on your method. So because you use the word well, no, actually you were doing different work before. I’m not familiar with, did you call it spotting or Brainspotting? What, what does that mean though? Like what does it tell me, like, what are you doing? What, how do you spot things in your brain?

Dona Airey (29:17):

Yeah. one, it, it might make a little bit more sense this came out of EMDR, which they use the eyes going back and forth and this method, you’re looking at one spot or maybe two. And so the focus as you know, the, I learned many years ago in NLP is that, you know, as you look into a spot, different emotions will come up. And so, you know, in that way you can work with emotion and here’s a simple one. Like you can say just something little, you know, you had to say it out loud, but say something that maybe is as bothered you or you don’t like or something. And so as you think of it, take, you know, 10 seconds and look down and think about that right now. Just 10 seconds. Yup. Look down. Okay. Okay. Let that go. Now, having that same look up about 45 degrees up and have the same thought. Okay. So. How is the experience of it different?

Dr Manon (30:43):

Well, it w what happened for me is the first time I felt like more concentrated into it, more absorbed by it. And then when I was looking up, it’s almost like hard to search.

Dona Airey (31:02):

It changes. Because when you’re looking down, you know, again, talking about, even with brain spotting, you change your eye position because it goes through a different place in the limbic system. And so again, that’s a little simplistic, but I hope it helps understand because we use a pointer and that with the point of they have something to look at. Right. And so we can change the pointer in terms of where their eyes are. And so maybe looking at the pointer and we have like, from zero to 10, the intensity of something that they’re working on, and let’s say the intensity is 10 as they look at this spot and it’s too overwhelming for them. So we find a different spot that, like you said, that was kind of went away completely, but we go to a different spot that the same subject, the same emotion, the same, but it’s, it’s a little less, you know, you’re able to deal with it because it’s not so overwhelming that you get stuck. And so we can use the eye placement in terms of allowing people to work on the level that they can still work without it being overwhelming. But that’s an example of a part of what happens during that process

Dr Manon (32:28):

that’s the principle of EMDR that is used for PTSD, but is it the fact that by finding a different location, you start to realize that an emotion can grab you fully, or is it that your changing. the intensity so that if it was a 10 and now it’s like, I couldn’t think of something with seven. It was like a four. So it was zero. If I could think of something that as attending may have gone down to five or six, but there’s the idea of going to a spot that is less intense then to stay with it for awhile to see, to allow the emotion to come out.

Dona Airey (33:22):

Yes. And then we go back to the original one where we, and then that emotion or thought or wherever you are in the less intense place to allow the intense place to Melt together. So that what you’re working towards is zero. And so I don’t have any emotional response or intensity to it. And it might take one session. It might take more than one. But yet, so you still work with both spots because it is, it is the less intensity, not an understanding. In fact, you don’t, you do get to an understanding, but after, after the emotional aspect kind of dissipates.

Dr Manon (34:11):

Clears. Yeah I do understand what you mean by it being a different, it’s a different experience. It’s an experience. It’s not just, I mean, thoughts will always come to analyze after, but you can’t. Yeah. It’s not a thought experience. It’s an experience. It’s an experience with your body.

Dona Airey (34:34):

You know, one thing that brings to mind what you just said, I also talk about the way we function in the world, body, mind, and spirit. And if you’re looking at that as a pie, you know, third, third, third, they each have their own process. The mind is linear. The body is movement. Spirit is kind of around.. And so with each element fully developed, they talk to each other and integrate. So if you’re fully developed in functioning, in the emotional part of you and the physical part of you, then the dialogue with the thought is more complete and with the spirit. And so then you have a more complete like your core, so to speak because you have all three elements working together.

Dr Manon (35:32):

It’s almost like a more embodied experience starting at the body. There’s more it’s beyond the body. Yeah. And you can tell if a person is embodied or not, and it has, yeah. Not just to do with the movement, it’s everything else to get there, you know, included.

Dona Airey (35:54):

And so when you were talking about earlier, you do integrate the thought and the emotion, however just like you learn anything you separate at first so that you can learn it. So as I work with people and their emotions just kind of like, forget the thought right now, you know, we’re working with the physical part and once that becomes natural to them, and then, like I said earlier, they can integrate much better think better when your emotions are functional.

Dr Manon (36:31):

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Dona Airey (36:33):

But there is kind of a, in the learning curve, I try to separate it.

Dr Manon (36:38):

Yeah. I think that’s a good distinction. It’s true. It’s easier to understand if you separate it first. Otherwise it’s too, you’re doing all pieces at once and you’re not adding to one thing.

Dona Airey (36:51):

And as a healing person, like with your work, and when I worked with people in person you know, you can integrate it kind of all at once because you’re there holding certain things rather than holding the emotional part or holding the physical part or holding something so that it can integrate. But as I’m working with people and getting them to understand their emotions and be comfortable with them it has to be a separation so they can learn it.

Dr Manon (37:22):

Sure. Yeah, a very good point. What was I was, I had a question. So before you were doing or I think you, you said you were doing like work on the unconscious, right. Or the subconscious. Yeah. How does that figure in now in your understanding with what you’ve come to learn, how does that fit to emotional work?

Dr Manon (37:53):

That’s a great question. That is a quite great question. I’ve never thought of it in that way. I think that with the unconscious or the subconscious it isn’t I think, and I’m doing this off the cuff because I’ve not thought about it. So I’m just going to say what I’m thinking at the moment. It might be different tomorrow. But today right now as I see it it’s like the subconscious doesn’t have the verbiage you think, you know, in dreams and as the subconscious is more visions and colours and that’s where the knowledge is. So it’s not really, emotions is not thought and yet it’s kind of an in between thing, but I think it’s closer to the body because it’s nonverbal

Dona Airey (38:56):

because it’s non verbal. I mean, there’s plenty of emotions. Like if you look at dreams, for example, it could be emotions too.

Dona Airey (39:08):

And think about doing me as an example, when someone tells you about their dream or we think about our own dreams, whatever what comes up the most, this person did this, it’s not about, it’s not about what was said necessarily, unless it’s, it is connected to a movement or something that happened or the scenery of it. And think about how people talk about dreams and nightmares particularly.

Dr Manon (39:44):

I don’t have an answer to my question either, but it’s an interesting thing to……………I know in my work that how I see the subconscious, not, not so much with dreams because I haven’t even looked at that. And really I mean, not from this angle, but the way that trauma stocks itself happens in the subconscious, for sure, because there’s no conscious association to an emotion. For example, if you discuss with the person, like I’m thinking of one particular case that just comes to mind now who had tremendous old fright currently, it was a stage fright Right. But they were already an actor. So it was like kind of a weird one to have. But years ago they went to a dentist and they were actually terrified of the dental operation they had to go through, but they, they could remember the dentist, but there was no associated connection to the emotion of it.

Dr Manon (41:13):

So it’s not like lost, it was there, it’s a valid memory, but no emotional connection to it. And I did the bodywork that allowed the, the release of the, the current absolute stage frightened panic. And they had gone to see just about everybody. What was interesting is the body released the taste of anesthesia, which was associated to the dental surgery, which then allowed this particular patient to connect to the absolute fright. They experienced release it and then ended up releasing the stage fright Which had just like, you know, two different elements, one big fear, one time, the fear that they merged and then bang it was all taken care of.

Dona Airey (42:26):

Well me, I would say simplistically, what’s the common denominator there, fear and whereas fear it’s in the body and we’re housing it someplace. Exactly. Right. And so sometimes the fear is the act like for whatever reason, we don’t know why it doesn’t really matter, but sometimes it’s stacked and then both are released sometimes. Sometimes they’re connected in a way we will never understand and that’s okay. But the fact is both of them have to do with fear. So we’re going into the body with that fear emotion.

Dr Manon (43:11):

It all comes back down to the body. That’s right. Anyway, I’m looking at the time. It was a great conversation. And maybe you have a couple words you want to share and then we’ll put also your ways that people can get in touch with you and all that on the, on the actual website or so words to close.

Dr Manon (43:43):

I think in terms of how I work with people and the type of people that come to me or people that, you know, want some kind of change and maybe don’t know, maybe they know the thought of it and maybe they know the emotion of it. And, and so we can get to the crux of it in order for them to work on it themselves. That’s the beauty of what I do now, I think. And so in terms of, you know, I’m in transition right now, so I don’t have all my website things set up, but anybody can email me .

New Speaker (44:24):

my name is spelled with one n dona [email protected] or my website, which is my name, Donna joy, airy.com. And so they can reach me either one of those ways and, and I can talk to them and, you know, we can have a conversation about what’s going on.

Dr Manon (44:40):

Sure. And we’ll put, we’ll be listing that directly underneath so people can find it. All right. Well, thank you so much. And

Dr Manon (44:49):

Thank you. I really look forward to having time with you and I appreciate it. Thanks.

Dr Manon (44:53):

Well, thank you as well. Thank you.

Thank you for joining us. For more information, go to DrManonBolliger.com.