other things, there’s got to be a little bit more balance for people.

Dr. Manon  03:49

Well, I think that’s true of entrepreneurs as well. Because stress affects us differently if you love what you do. So it’s very subjective. So I completely agree with you, I think too what I’ve seen that many people have issues with is what to do with the children if they have children. It’s just the actual management of their time and their availability, and very different circumstances when you also can’t socialize, which I think many people took for granted. Whereas a lot of entrepreneurs, they’re kind of used to being lone leaders and it’s a different mindset. You might go to some big meetings or things like that, but you’re not in the daily meetings in offices and that type of thing. So it’s a big change for so many people.

Dr. Sharon Grossman  04:59

And I think the other piece you were asking about anxiety? I think we saw that a lot in the beginning of COVID. Because COVID brought with it so many changes, and so much unpredictability and uncertainty that people were really stressed out about that. People like to know what’s coming, they like to predict they like to control. And when all that goes out the window, you see anxiety really rising. And then of course, over the last year, we’ve had all kinds of really dramatic events happening in politics, and culturally, like Black Lives Matter, and the women’s movement, and so much has happened. That I feel like the other thing is that you have things, these things that happen. But I also think that there are some people that are more prone to anxiety. And I have clients like this, and what I find is that they’re really anxious about this one thing, and then that thing gets resolved. And it’s not like they’re fine. It’s like, then they find the next thing to be anxious about. And then they’re like, Oh, my God, what about this? And then they just keep moving on to the next thing, and the next thing, the next thing, and then you guys take a step back, and really look at like, what is happening in your mind.

Dr. Manon  06:23

Well, I mean, hormonally, it’s also a bit of an addiction, you get used to the hormones that are produced. And when you’re in anxious states, and it’s like, even though the mind can say, well, that’s done. The body craves another sort of drama or something to go into. Right?

Dr. Sharon Grossman  06:46

Yes,  That’s the word. That’s the D-word, we talk about that a lot. A lot of drama.

Dr. Manon  06:55

So how did you get into becoming a psychologist or what was your desire to help people in this way?

Dr. Sharon Grossman  07:08

So it’s funny because I talked about this a little bit in the book, where, when I was growing up, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. But what I did know is that I wanted to find something that I was going to be passionate about. And I think that’s part of the reason why I was struggling so much because I was like, it’s gotta be, I gotta find what that is, right? And I just didn’t know. It wasn’t like some, some kids, you know, when I was growing up, they’re like, I’m gonna grow up, I will be a lawyer, I’m gonna be a doctor, you know, that kind of thing. I didn’t have that. It wasn’t like, that’s my calling. And from the time I was five, I always knew, and so I was really like searching for myself, I was trying to find what that was going to be. And I did a lot of exploration, and I really was fascinated by the world of psychology and like the psyche, the mind, and just the power that it gives us when you understand what’s running the show. And you can kind of use and apply all these tools that are now taught, how can dramatically shift your life and I thought this is meaningful work. And it just fit really well because I’m somebody who likes to help other people, and I’m really driven. There’s this passion about the transformation that you see with people when they come to me, and they’re depressed and they’re stuck. And there’s all this kind of low energy and heaviness, and then they walk out and they’re able to really thrive in their life. There’s something really magical about that. And I was like, I could dedicate my life to that.

Dr. Manon  09:02

 And because many times, people go into healing also because of something that they have had to overcome or something they wanted to help others with directly, you know, a family member or something like that. So I’m curious you’ve been doing this for 19,20 yrs now right? So for you, it wasn’t and immediate, you were still finding something, and then you discovered this basically. So it wasn’t your own health issues or concerns.

Dr. Sharon Grossman  09:40

Yeah. When I talked to a lot of people in podcasts and different business owners and things and I find that almost always, they’re looking for that story of what happened to you, and now you’re like helping other people with that same thing. And I’m and I always feel like I don’t fit into this model. I’m the one who had the burnout, and I’m hoping everybody would burn out, or I have the trauma, and I’m helping everybody with trauma. Like it didn’t work that way, in my case, at least. And there’s nothing wrong with it, when it does happen that way, I think there’s a lot of value that people bring from their own experience. But I think I bring a different kind of value to people. And that is coming from that place of resilience and teaching them things that maybe they can’t see like that blind spot that we all have, and be able to come in and say these are the patterns that I’m seeing. And here are some things that can really help or just eliciting things from that, like, sometimes I’ll do an exercise with the client, and for some clients are just like rolling with it really quickly. And other people get really stuck because they have a hard time accessing parts of themselves. And so to have a conversation with somebody else is really great. Because then I’m able to see things about them and reflect that back to them and they’re having these insights, and then things start to fall into place, you know.

Dr. Manon  11:17

Anyway, I laugh at my own question because I’m actually in the same kind of predicament because I chose my career in naturopathic medicine. And it’s only while I was a doctor, that I ended up becoming sick, and having to deal with mindset issues and physical issues. So it didn’t come the other way around and so many people didn’t come like that so it is just curiosity.

Dr. Sharon Grossman  11:55

But I think there’s something to be said, for being intentional about the drive in your life, and I kind of chose this path very intentionally. And, that was to get into psychology, and then I kind of shifted more into coaching. And even that was really intentional. Because it was about having greater reach, and about who I want to work with, and what struggles they have, and what can I help them with the most. And so I really kind of designed my work and my business around these key questions. Really being intentional about that. Because I think that’s important to really sit down and think about these things, because we spend so much time working and might as well be fit, and it’s something that we’re passionate about.

Dr. Manon  12:50

What I see too is that we create what we want so if we want to create solutions for certain people that we want to work with these, we better really want to work with the people that we are serving. So if we do it sort of haphazardly, you’re gonna end up with people that you’re not as connected to. And I think that’s where the connection of if you’ve experienced it, there’s an automatic connection because you’ve gone through it. You’re picking a group of people that you feel your service can really help like, in your case those with anxiety or overwhelm or even burnout stages. Is that because you feel that those are the people that use all of the methodologies and what you use as a coach, and as a psychologist, you can help them the most, or what’s the thinking for your choice there since we’re talking about true choice?

Dr. Sharon Grossman  13:57

Yeah, well, I think when I was working as a therapist, I didn’t really have a choice. It’s like whoever showed up and whatever they were dealing with, and oftentimes, they were dealing with a number of things. But I’ve had all these years of experience of working on all different kinds of issues. So then it was like, Okay, well now with coaching, I can actually really niche down and I can really focus in on a set of problems or a set of the population. And I really love working with high achievers, because I can totally relate because I’m kind of a high achiever too. But I’m kind of a different high achiever in the sense that I’m not a perfectionist, which a lot of high achievers are, and I’m not a procrastinator, and I don’t have imposter syndrome, and I’m not a people pleaser. So those are the things that I see in a lot of the people that I work with. And I feel like I have the tools to help them. And I don’t have to be in it with them to be able to do so. It was just kind of saying like, what are the patterns, what are the things that people are struggling with? And how can I take all the things that I know really help from, like all of the mindset training, and help them to really shift their relationship with themselves and with their work?

Dr. Manon  15:29

So can we take one of them as an example that would you be up for?

Dr. Sharon Grossman  15:34

Yes.

Dr. Manon  15:36

So I trained a lot of naturopathic doctors, medical doctors in Bowen College, where I teach a natural pain elimination technique. And one of the things I have noticed, and I’m not a perfectionist, either, I just like to get things done. That’s why I don’t procrastinate. And if I’m wrong. It’s like, okay, fine, we just course correct, right. But I am surrounded by perfectionists. And the more degrees they have, the harder it is for them to trust themselves to do something so simple. Like what I teach is super simple, compared to the degrees that they got to get there. So how do you break down a mindset? Like I know everyone’s individual, so I’ll preempt it that way. But what have you seen to be an effective way to crack that nut as they say?

Dr. Sharon Grossman  16:37

This is what I teach, right? Whatever your pattern is, there is some sort of a belief underlying that pattern. So perfectionism is a behavior. But it stems from an emotion. Typically, it’s a fear of failure. And that emotion stems from a certain way of thinking. And it’s usually some sort of a worried thought. I’ll give you an example. I have an executive that I’m working with. And she’s definitely a perfectionist. And she is in a very high role. And she’s been doing it for years and years. But she’s still got that imposter syndrome. And she’s still definitely perfectionistic. And so for her, it took a lot to get her to click on, you know, click send on the emails, she would write an email to the company, which she would have to send out every Monday, let’s say. And she would read it over like eight times, like over and over, and over and over and just keep going and keep going. Because she was so afraid that she would mess something up in that email, and she would send it and it would be like this catastrophic embarrassment. And that always came back to that imposter syndrome of like, then they’ll realize that I’m not really that great, then they’ll fire me. So it’s like that fear of embarrassment and the fear of failure and the fear of rejection, all the things. And so I feel like that’s huge. There’s some sort of a fear underlying that perfectionism. Either the fear of being found out that maybe they’ll realize that I’m not that great. And typically what I tell people, people will have imposter syndrome more often than not, are their harshest critics. And they see themselves as a lot less than what other people see them as. Because they can’t see themselves through other people’s lens, and they only see themselves through their own lens, they project all of their own stuff onto other people. And then they assume that other people see them the way that they see themselves. So it’s really hard for them to break out of this pattern, because they’re like, everybody sees me like this. Of course, this is how it is. Because that’s all they know. You know, and sometimes they know on a rational level, like, I know, I’m good. I know that people like me, I know that. Like, I’ve gotten all the promotions, but like they still are stuck in that emotional mind that fear. And that comes from the belief, that’s kind of that underlying mechanism.

Dr. Manon  18:36

The belief or I would imagine Also, sometimes an incident or an early childhood interpretation of something, would you think or…….

Dr. Sharon Grossman  19:28

Well, that’s what leads to the belief.

Dr. Sharon Grossman  19:33

So we have these early life experiences with crisis programming and our subconscious mind, but these beliefs that then drive the rest of the mechanism. And that’s why I do a lot of reprogramming for people because I teach in my model, I’m really focusing mostly on helping people think differently. And so I think that’s an important place to be. So that as things are happening in your everyday life, you’re learning how to manage your mind.

Commercial Break  20:14

Hi, I’m Dr. Manon Bolliger, and I wanted to take a moment to thank you for watching these podcasts. If you haven’t subscribed, please do. Also, feel free to leave comments and like it. This way more people get to find out about this work and about other choices for health. So I think it’s really important that we all share this information. I have a free gift for you. It’s a seven sequence email that has tips for every day, and a little insight about how to live your life when it comes to health. And it’s very much built on how I managed to overcome stage four cancer and what it took. So I would love you to have this and thank you once again, for listening to these podcasts.

Dr. Sharon Grossman  21:16

That can help you not to feel so anxious because anxiety is a result of a lot of thoughts about the future, about things going wrong, about all the worst-case scenarios coming, true and what if this happened, and what if that happened? And then if you can manage that and you don’t just go on autopilot, then you can actually shift out of that anxiety and then you’re not avoiding things or you’re not procrastinating or whatever the behavior is. So usually this trickle effect of thoughts leads to your emotions and leads to your behaviors. So that’s what I teach because I think it’s important for day-to-day stuff as it’s happening. But then I also teach some of the deeper work, which is about reprogramming your subconscious mind. So that your filter is different. Because this is what I always explained to people that people often think the reason I am stressed, the reason I’m burned out, the reason I’m anxious is because this thing happened, right? Like COVID happened or I got fired, or I’m getting divorced or something happened. And what I teach them is that there is actually an intermediary step in between their circumstance and how they feel. And that is their thoughts. What are they? What’s their interpretation? What kind of meaning are they assigning a circumstance that’s going to determine how they feel? And that’s actually really good news because then we have a choice, right? And you can kind of reverse engineer the results that you want to create in the world and how you want to feel can determine what thoughts you kind of insert into that equation if that makes sense.

Dr. Manon  23:05

So you’re doing it, and correct me if I am wrong, so cognitively as in you’re getting people to understand and then reverse engineer and go, Okay, now I have this thought, alright, I remember this belongs to this. Okay. And let’s course correct. Is that the subconscious component of that?

Dr. Sharon Grossman  23:40

So there are two different things. So we can work on the conscious mind, which is saying, become self-aware of your self-talk. Notice the thoughts that are going through your mind, and how those thoughts lead you to feeling the way that you do and behaving in the way that you do. So if you’re a perfectionist, we kind of rewind the tape and say, what is the feeling? What’s the emotion that is leading you to focus, in such a perfectionistic way on your work? And then you can say, oh, there’s some sort of fear there. And then you can ask yourself, why do I feel this fear? What is the thought that is going through my mind, and then you can say, Well, I’m worried that if I send off this email, and I make some mistake, I’m gonna get fired, or I’m gonna make an idiot of myself in front of the whole company. It makes sense why you’re going to be a perfectionist right? You can understand that. So it takes a little bit of that self-awareness to kind of just clue in on what is the process? What is that trickle-down effect? And when you have that awareness, then you can, and this is what I trained people on is like, how to ask yourself these powerful questions so that you can find these turnarounds. You can kind of interject something that’s more helpful. That’s more accurate. That’s more likely. And then you can substantially reduce all the negative outcomes. So that’s kind of like the thinking piece of things. The deeper level work and this is what I would recommend for people who are noticing that they sabotage themselves a lot, that they are stuck in a pattern where no matter how much they’ve tried, and people can relate to this, whether it’s dieting, where they’ve tried all the diets, and then they never lose the weight, or like, they can’t stop smoking, or they’re in some sort of a pattern, whatever it is. They have low self-esteem, or whatever it is. That is really, that really comes down, as you said before, to your subconscious mind. And that usually stems from those early life experiences. So typically, what I explain is that when we develop our belief system, it’s usually before the age of seven, right? So our brain isn’t fully developed. So think about a child who’s three or five, right? And they’re kind of home, and they’re seeing all this stuff happening in their house, or they’re at school or with their friends. And they don’t really have a full understanding of how the world works yet. And developmentally, they’re in that place where they think everything revolves around them. I am the center of the universe. So if mom is happy, it means I’m a good girl. And if mom is upset, it means I’m a bad girl. And there’s something wrong with me, right? And so we’re making everything about us, even when it’s not, because that’s just where we are at that stage of life. And so we have these formative years, where we’re doing all this kind of misinterpretation. And we come up with these beliefs and the belief, if you think about it, it’s really just a thought that you’ve had over and over again, and it becomes cemented. And basically, that is your programming. So programming, if you’ve heard that word, it’s basically a message or thoughts that you have heard either from others or you’ve told yourself enough times that your subconscious mind, which is your computer has latched on to, and your subconscious mind’s job is to be efficient. So it’s, it’s like I tell people what, it doesn’t have an opinion, it doesn’t care what program you feed it, it’s just there to serve you. So if you tell it something over and over again, then it thinks like, that’s the program that you want it to run. So it’s like, cool, I totally got this, I will do that for you. And it just runs on autopilot. And what that means is that you don’t even think about it. It’s not a conscious process.  And that’s why it’s so hard for people to break out of self-sabotage. Because it’s not like a rational thing that you can just like, make a switch. And so we need to reprogram the mind. And what that means is that you’ve got to now create new programs, new messages, to alter the beliefs, so that everything that you do is now the result of a new automatic process that actually works for you rather than against you.

Dr. Manon  28:22

What’s interesting, too, is that these first programs were often there to protect us or to protect our ego, right? And it’s like when we’re reprogramming, and I have a question on that too. It’s gonna do the same, but it’s going to work in the direction of working for us today. Because the old program was maybe fabulous then it might have saved our life. But right now, it doesn’t serve us. To be the good little girl or the perfectionist or whatever that was necessary right now is hampering us so how do you, I mean so now we’re talking again consciously exploring an emotion and a belief which we then have a story about, etc. But how are you switching that knowledge to the new program when you know that this is a sabotaging limited belief? And if I keep going this way, I know the results, because, you know, I’ve repeated it a million times, etc. So what’s the… because I know there’s like, there’s all kinds of things on the market. And I love the way you explain so succinctly what that unconscious belief system is, but how do you reprogram in simple words, like can you explain a little bit?

Dr. Sharon Grossman  29:57

Yeah, so I mean, the essence is if you think about how we got the original program is, as I said, it was something that you heard over and over again. And that’s essentially what creates a program in your brain, right? It’s like your subconscious mind is always listening. And when it hears something a lot, then it becomes a mind habit. And the way that I like to have people think about this is when you create a regular habit, a behavioral habit, it’s something that you have to do over and over again. So I tell people like you weren’t born brushing your teeth, you didn’t come out of the womb with a toothbrush and be like, Okay, this is what I do every morning, right? It’s something that was taught, you have to practice it. And you probably forgot to do it, or you had to have your parent remind you, but you got into this sequence where you were doing it every single day, and you did it at the same time, every day. You either did it first thing when you woke up, or you did it right after breakfast, you do before bed, like we have these very, like exact times that we do this behavior. And so now, after all these years, you’re in this routine, where you don’t have to think about it, you just roll out of bed and that’s what you do. It’s automated. And so that’s how habits are created. Right? We do something over and over again. And then it comes to the point where I don’t have to really remember to do it. It’s just something that’s easy for me. And it’s kind of like when you first learn to drive and you’re just like, oh my god, I have to focus on the blinker and the mirror and to look and to signal and oh my god like this overwhelming. And now you get in your car, and you get to your destination, you don’t even remember how you got there. It’s like everything’s so automated, right? And the same thing happens with your beliefs. So if you think something a million times, it becomes cemented in your subconscious mind. And then it feels true. You don’t question it, and it starts to kind of drive everything.

Dr. Manon  32:15

But if so we’re replacing…. because the brain doesn’t know the difference if it’s true or not true. So the idea is you’re replacing with…how do you know that it replaces the self-sabotaging thoughts? So for example, that’s specifically my question.

Dr. Sharon Grossman  32:40

So I was just explaining kind of like, what leads up to that original, but then you can use that same formula to create the new program, you basically need that same consistent repetition over time. And that creates that new mind habit. And so what that means is that what I do with my clients, part of what I do is all elicit from them, all the negative thoughts, all the negative behaviors, all the negative emotions, all the things they tell me. And then we have them turn it around. So then, instead of saying, I’m a loser, I’ll say to them, how do you want to think about yourself? How do you want to feel? What do you want to do? Ideally, if you could have your ideal scenario, right? If you weren’t in this place where you really believe that, and so we come up with all these turnarounds. And, then I’ll go in, and I’ll read it all back to them. And I’m like, just I want you to just close your eyes and just like hear this. And tell me how that feels in your body. Right? Like, what is it like to hear this, like as if it’s true? And people usually have one of two responses to that. Either. It feels amazing. And it’s so much lighter, right? Because all the negative thoughts are heavy. There’s this like lightening of your load if you will. And so there’s that. And then the other response is, it just doesn’t filter,

Dr. Sharon Grossman  34:13

And I say, well, that’s exactly the point. Because you’re not there yet. Yeah, we’re just identifying where you want to be. And now we have to get you there. Right. So it makes sense that, I mean, obviously, if it was true, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. And so we have to identify what the turnarounds are. And then what we do is, we’ll create a recording where they can listen to it over and over again. And that’s that repetition. So all I ask them is to stay consistent. I’ll say to them, it takes at least three weeks to create a habit. And if you want this to really work and you want to really expedite this process. You want to commit to listening to your recording for at least 15 minutes. And if you could do it two or three times a day, that would be great. And what I tell them because I work with high achievers, so I know everybody’s like strapped for time, I said, this is not taking additional time out of your day. You’re doing this while you’re doing other things. So while you’re brushing your teeth and getting dressed and doing or showering, this is something you can have in the background. And when you’re cooking dinner, this is something you could have in the background. And when you’re taking your dog for a walk, you put it on your headphones, and this is what you listen to. So it’s not about taking more time out of your day. And I’m very intentional about the strategies that I provide people because I know people aren’t going to do it if it takes more time. Or if it takes too much energy it takes, you know. Like people are already feeling overwhelmed with all the things that they have, and so I feel like this works really well, because they don’t have to sacrifice anything. And if they’re consistent, they start to see the results. And it just starts to blow their mind. They’re like, Oh, my God, I can’t believe that I’ve spent my whole life with this, and now it’s only been like, X number of days, and I’m already here. And so when people see that there’s like, this quick turnaround. And this is the other thing I tell people like, yes, I’m asking you to do this two, three times a day. But it’s not forever. It’s just until we have the program kind of set. And then you don’t have to do it anymore. Because it’s already in there. Once the program is set, you’re just on autopilot. It’s just a different kind of program. It’s the program that works for you rather than against you. So I just need that initial commitment.

Dr. Manon  36:55

 And I guess it self selects itself to replace a negative program.

Dr. Sharon Grossman  37:03

Yeah. And what my clients also report is that, at least in the early stages, like before, they get to that three-week mark, kind of like in between, they’re just a lot more mindful about their self chatter. So all of a sudden, all the subconscious stuff that you were telling yourself has become more conscious, it’s kind of risen up where you’re noticing because you are still hearing all the negative things that you always told yourself, at the same time, you’re practicing your positive statements. So now there’s like some counterbalance there where you’re like, I hear this, but one of my clients put it this way, she’s like, we’re not doing that now. This is what she tells herself when the negative like we’re not doing that now. Right? So she’s able to intervene, whereas before, it just felt like it was happening to her. And, you know, you don’t feel like you have control or you’re not even conscious of it. Like it’s just you’re feeling the effects of it, you don’t know how you got there. So this really starts to turn things around. And it happens really quickly. And so people can be like, just have quick results. And that’s really what I want for my clients and why I kind of came into the coaching world is because I want to give people transformational results in a short amount of time.

Dr. Manon  38:20

This has been great and our times, almost up here and I just wanted to mention you have it’s a seven-day burnout challenge, is that the same as the Seven E Solution, or are they two different programs that you have?

Dr. Sharon Grossman  38:45

Well, I actually created the free seven-day challenge based on the Seven E Solution that I wrote about in my book. So basically, every day I’m taking them through, it’s kind of like an introduction to each one of the seven E’s. And they get an email that has a link to a video. And so in that video, I’m explaining about the concept, and then I give them an assignment. Because the idea is you don’t want to just get the information you actually want to implement it and see how it applies to you. And so I give them a homework assignment. And so there’s some sort of an exercise and they do this for the course of seven days. And so that takes them through all of the seven E’s. And it’s just like a more practical application for some people like to read the book, and they’ll get like all the exercises, there’s a lot more in there and then just like what’s in the challenge, but this is just like a really quick and dirty because it only requires about 15 minutes of your time between watching the video and doing the exercise. And it’s only a week and then you’re kind of on the other side. So I love to gift that to people just to kind of get them started and get them introduced to all the concepts and what’s possible.

Dr. Manon  40:00

We’ll definitely put that at the bottom of our interview. And I just want to thank you, Dr. Sharon Grossman, for coming on this show. And I think it’s been really nice information to share in a very timely time.

Dr. Sharon Grossman  40:14

Well, thank you again so much for having me and I’m just excited to share these messages with your listeners.

Thank you for joining us. For more information, go to DrManonBolliger.com.