we’re growing up with, and so we tend to put the needs of others before ourselves. Is it just a kind of mothering and a nurturing, beautiful kind of aspect of womanhood, but it can have really detrimental impacts on our relationships, where we don’t put our needs first.

 

Manon Bolliger  03:23

And where do you think that comes from in your you know, when you’ve discussed this with several people, where is there a more like a scenario where you go, this makes sense? You’ve seen this many times.

 

Tzara Attwater  03:39

Yes, so the anxious attachment starts, or the theory, comes from a woman called Mary Ainsworth who did a study in the, I think it was in the 1970s late 1960s and it was called the Strange Situation Study. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of it, but she takes, she basically got mothers to bring their or caregivers to bring their toddlers, one, one or two year old children, into a study room that was filled with toys. And the study was really trying to understand the impact of what would happen when the mother, the caregiver, left the room and then came back in how the child coped. And from this, she devised three different attachment styles, the anxious attached, the secure attached, and the avoidant attached. So there’s a later on that became a fourth. But just for simplicity’s sake, these were the three. And so when there’s inconsistency in the childhood with a caregiver. Sometimes, you know, maybe that’s because the caregiver has two jobs, is a single parent. There are all sorts of reasons. The child learns that sometimes they’re going to get love, sometimes they’re not, and the child can internalize this as being something wrong with them that they need to prove or need to earn their love in some way. And so how this manifests in us as adults, in our adult relationships, is that we constantly feel like we need to prove ourselves, that if something’s going wrong in a relationship, it’s our fault, that we’re not good enough in some way, and they were constantly trying to please. Conversely, the avoidant person really significantly experienced sorry, experienced a significant amount of trauma and neglect as a child, so they learnt to disassociate from their emotions and to, you know, I use this word loosely, but pretend like there’s nothing going on. I don’t need your help. I don’t need…I don’t need you. Instead, we get this emotionally avoidant kind of traits occurring. So what happens in the dating pool is that you have a lot of anxious and avoidant people in the dating pool constantly triggering each other, right? Constantly. So the avoidant is getting away from somebody because they’re then that’s their coping style to get away from emotions, whereas the anxious person is needy and is clingy and is wanting to that constant reassurance because of a fear of being rejected. So that was what I was running. And you know, as we know, when we run these fears, what ends up happening is the very thing that we’re fearful of ends up happening. And like I said, I walked in on my partner, and think change for me in that way. So I started working with women in this anxious attachment space, and as a result of that, we touched on it a little bit. But after COVID, or during COVID, I ended up building a motor home, and, you know, embracing my own fears and had the courage to do a circumnavigate around Australia. And I took two years, built my motor home and did a solo trip around Australia. I think I’ve got a little map I could share. For people that can see this, this is, I don’t know if this is going to work. Yeah, there it is, alright. So dots that you can see on the map are where I took photographs and on a GPS, it’s an app was plotting my journey all the way around. So that was some 30, over 33,000 kilometers, I think, that I did in two years. Amazing experience, but that really taught me about resilience and really helped me heal this anxious attachment style, and really brought some more compassion to it for me. So now I’m kind of pivoting into helping workplace anxiety and seeing where that helps leaders in corporations, because I believe that we’re all leaders. We’re all leaders of self so where, every day, we have to show up and support ourselves and be the lighthouse for ourselves. And so that self leadership is where I’m really focusing on now.

 

Manon Bolliger  08:24

But I mean, there must be some commonality, right, like at the base of it, the traumas or the behaviors. You know, once you bring consciousness to it, I don’t know what you use as methodology to help people actually in either with either sector. But what is it you do to like what was…what did you learn from your two year journey that made you realize that you could help people and facilitated? Basically.

 

Tzara Attwater  09:01

Yes, great question. So I think what, what I needed to understand, what the anxious person needs to understand, is to be comfortable enough with space. And so that distance between another person, there’s this fear of rejection occurring, and so there needs to be this closure, whether it’s physical, mental, emotional, there’s this desire to close this space. So on my journey around Australia, I was alone, I was by myself, and really got comfortable with my own space, and that helped me get some distance over my own behavior patterns. So getting comfortable with space in in all aspects is one of the main things that I work with my clients on, but also this overthinking, what I call ruminating, mind reading, making an assumption about what somebody else is thinking or feeling, is a massive one. Because for the anxiously attached, we will constantly kind of think, oh, you know, my boss wants me to go into the office to talk to him. That must mean he’s going to fire me. We immediately go into the worst case scenario. Or, you know, I haven’t heard from my partner. I’ve just sent him a text message. He hasn’t responded in five minutes. Therefore he’s going to leave me, you know, this constant kind of jumping to the worst case scenario, and so looking at space and being able to be comfortable with that space, and then working on the mind, reading why we’re making these assumptions, and oftentimes we’re making about ourselves, rather than thinking, okay, maybe the person’s busy, or maybe my my boss wants to talk to me because he wants to congratulate me on what an amazing job I’ve just done. So rather than thinking it’s something wrong with me, I’m the bad person, I’m going to be reprimanded in some way. So shifting that mind reading is another one, and then to help with the comparison, or not comparison, should I say. It’s more about acknowledging what you’ve actually achieved, rather than comparing yourself to another person who might be succeeding in relationships or in work, in business, rather than comparing yourself to that to actually recognize all the things that you have achieved already, all the things that, all the challenges that you’ve experienced in life that make up your journey of who you are, and you know the merits that are involved with that. So it’s about recognizing that when you can do that, you can see that you’ve got resilience. You can see that you could got the confidence to be able to overcome all sorts of things. So those are the kind of three main things that we work with that are the main topics.

 

Manon Bolliger  11:50

So when you say space, could you expand a little bit? You know, because I almost see time, but that might be my story. But what is, what is space for you?

 

Tzara Attwater  12:03

Yes, good question. Good question. So it’s about, when I talk about it physically, it’s about physically having space with somebody. If you’re in a partnership, let’s say living with someone, working with somebody, and constantly being around somebody, 24/7, and rather than having your own pursuits, going and meeting your own friends and having you know interest outside of that relationship, because when you go and have those kind of experiences, you bring a richness back into the relationship when you’re only in the space or circum, circum, I can’t think of the words. So navigating one person, I can’t think of the word. When you’re only in their sphere, right? You’re limiting your own experience, and therefore your own learning and development. And so space is about having a friend network outside of the relationship. It doesn’t mean that the relationship is going to be ending. It’s about you bringing your richness back into it. So it’s about shifting that mindset, flipping that switch on what space means to it’s okay to be physically away, but then emotionally, you know, like I mentioned, with the avoidant person, they deal with trauma. They deal with challenges by going inward. And they might be introverted, and they need time alone to be able to process things. And so for the anxious person, that can be quite challenging, to be able to give emotional space to somebody because of their own triggering and their own woundings and and what that means that, you know, like I mentioned, with the caregiver, not being consistent and not being there, there’s this fear that they’re going to lose that emotional connection. So space emotionally is really important, and that’s where I really start with, because that’s the biggest trigger for anxious people. And anxious attachment, rather than anxiety, is a different thing, right? And then so emotionally, physically and mentally. And so the mental process is about stopping the rumination, stopping the overthinking. And so those are the three spaces that I work with.

 

Manon Bolliger  14:23

But and how do you achieve that, like as in, I mean, is it the consciousness of bringing it to the attention that makes the difference, or is it? Are there methods that you use that sort of work with the subconscious.

 

Tzara Attwater  14:43

So if you’re if we could probably do it now, actually, if you wanted, if you’re ruminating, if you’re overthinking, let’s say you’ve just had an argument with somebody. It doesn’t have to be a partner, it could be anybody. And you’re constantly going over, I should have said this. Or they, you know, when they said this, I did that, and that constant rumination that goes in the in the mind. That voice that’s talking to you, it’s needing to be distracted to in order to help you be able to get over that ruminating. I suggest to people to talk out loud, if you can, if you’re not around other people, but to talk out loud objects that you can see around you, and by objects I mean things that you can touch, not kind of emotional things, just things that you can touch. So for me now I’ve got my cup, phone, keyboard, desk chair, and I just start talking those things out loud, and what will happen is the nervous system will start to calm down. I’ll start to kind of the mind will become distracted with something else, and I can start to manage and get control back over my emotional state. So really, really good hack, especially if you’re driving, you know, if you’re driving around and you’re having this rumination happening. Just start talking about tree, pavement, road, car, whatever it is that you’re seeing in front of you. It’s an incredibly great hack that one.

 

Manon Bolliger  16:10

So, it’s like, a bit like Byron Katie’s distraction method, right?

 

Tzara Attwater  16:15

Right.

 

Manon Bolliger  16:16

Right. So she by being more present, yes, calling things by simple names. You stop the wheels. You know the job of thoughts, which is to keep thinking.

 

Tzara Attwater  16:29

100%.

 

Manon Bolliger  16:31

Okay.

 

Tzara Attwater  16:32

Yeah, 100% and that’s it. So what you’re trying to do is ground yourself in the moment. And so what you’re forcing the mind to do is acknowledging things around you in the present moment, and it stops it going off into the it just needs something to be distracted with. And then another, another great trick, which I use, is with the ruminating, especially when we start to blame ourselves. And let’s say, you know, the boss has asked you to come into his meeting room, and you start, and you’re sitting there thinking, what’s he going to talk to me about? What’s she going to say? Whatever. When you start thinking I’ve done something wrong, or when you start thinking I shouldn’t have done this, or I’m a bad person in some way, try and stop and ask yourself, What am I telling myself that isn’t true? What am I telling myself that isn’t true? And check in with reality. Check in with the actual facts. You know, hold on, I haven’t seen my boss for over a week. You know? What could he possibly or what could she possibly be upset about? Maybe it’s because I’ve done something right, or, you know, to not kind of ruminate on it, without the without the facts, without all the knowledge that you’ve got about the situation. So to check in and just say, you know, what am I telling myself? That’s not true.

 

Manon Bolliger  17:59

Yeah. I mean, it’s like distinguishing storytelling and reality, right? Exactly? Because I don’t know if it’s 80 or 90% of our thoughts apparently, are negative thoughts. You know, if we can become aware of that, then you know, there’s, there are ways to stop it. One of my favorite ways, at least that I’ve seen with my patients when I was in practice, or even when I’m teaching. And you know, and students have a fear of getting it right. They want to desperately get it right, because they’re in their thoughts, and they’re like, I’m not good enough. This isn’t right for me. I can’t do this. I’ll never succeed. I’m not actually helpful, whatever, whatever their thing is. But what I usually tell them to do, and this is also a Byron Katie, but I loved it so much when I saw her like near 20 years ago now. But thank your thoughts, because they’re doing their job. They’re just thinking, and what I do the sports mind, I put it into a little cloud, and here you go, and off you go. And thank you. We’ve done it once. You know, like I will listen to my thoughts one time. But when you pattern and it’s the same old, it’s like, we’ve been there. Thank you very much. You know, beautiful, and off we go, you know.

 

Tzara Attwater  19:26

Yeah, I love that. That’s beautiful.

 

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Tzara Attwater  20:29

When, when you know I’m a recovering perfectionist myself as well. That judgment that would be constantly there, that feeling of like I’m not good enough, or I’ve got to try harder, that voice inside the head. I use the metaphor of, you know, imagine that you’re in a lift, in an elevator, or in a lift in a really small room, and it’s just you and this incredibly large kind of bully that’s just standing over you and telling you, Oh, I see you’ve done that mistake again, or you’re not good enough here, or you could have tried harder. And that bully, if you stay in this room for long enough, you’re going to end up believing everything the bully says, and what we forget is that we can open the door and get away. And so that’s that, that analogy of the judgment that constantly there, and it can be a beautiful motivation to help us become better, but like you’re talking to overused. If we get stuck in this room, it can be incredibly debilitating. Yeah, and so I really think that that comes back to that idea of not being able to recognize the things that we’ve achieved, the challenges that we have overcome. We become too stuck and too focused on all the things that we haven’t done, all the things that we haven’t achieved, or, you know, the mistakes that we’ve made. You know, there’s a supposition in NLP that says there are no, there are no failures, but there are only learnings, right? So, you know, with every, every time we do something, if we make a mistake, it’s not really a failure, it’s just a way of us being able to learn how to do it better. You know, like we were, we were all toddlers at one stage, right, all learning to walk, let’s say. And if you know, if that little toddler had, I don’t know how many times I would have fallen over as a toddler, 1000s of times when I was learning to walk, right? I can’t remember it, but 1000s of times if I had turned around and gone, oh, I’m never going to get this walking thing. It’s, you know, I’m never going to do this. It’s got me. I would never have learned how to walk. But as a toddler, we understand to overcome a challenge. You know, when I put my foot here, it kind of, I need. I get a bit wonky. You know, I got to put the weight on both sides each time I’m adjusting, each time I’m making, I’m making a learning process. And that’s, that’s the beautiful thing that we need to try and focus on the things that we have overcome, the challenges that we’ve overcome, and we’ve been being able to achieve things rather than the mistakes we’ve made.

 

Manon Bolliger  23:22

Yeah, and I think you raise a very important point here too, because it’s easy, you know, in psychology, to say, well, it these problems came from the way my parents dealt with right? And the thing is, therapeutically, maybe that’s worth one sentence. You could say that. It’s probably somewhat true, but it isn’t part of the solution, right? Like going back into that past or trying to change what can’t be changed, it is really the wrong focus, because, like saying the toddler walking, it’s like, it’s your ability to work with what exists whichever way, and that it was perfect for the time. It wasn’t wat you needed then and then to be able to be free enough to say it’s not what you need now, right?

 

Tzara Attwater  24:18

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it’s beautiful, because I have this, I have this belief that we’re never too old to have the perfect childhood.

 

Manon Bolliger  24:29

Right.

 

Tzara Attwater  24:30

We have a choice, right? We have a choice about what narrative I’m using to reference. Yes, we were gifted things by our caregivers. 100% we were gifted things they they did the best that they could with the tools that they had at the time. But as we mature and turn into adults, we also have a choice. We have a choice to what narrative am I? Am I going to use to reference what way am I going to show up? And we have a choice. In that we have, we have the ability to have the perfect childhood, if we so wish, right? And I think it comes from taking responsibility for how we want to show up in the world. And yeah, it’s, it’s, yeah, I do like the idea that we’re never too old to have perfect childhood.

 

Manon Bolliger  25:22

So let’s talk about that transition between focused on relationship and this attachment syndrome to now more wanting to talk to leaders or leaders in community who also have the same childhood. So why? Why the shift? Like, where are you going with this? Or what do you see? Yeah. How can those people…

 

Tzara Attwater  25:54

Yeah, 100% and so I’m seeing a pattern with the anxious attachment style and how that’s showing up in in the workplace, and how it’s impacting not just your partner, like in a relationship space, it’s just the partner, but how it’s actually impacting teams and companies in general. And we give names like imposter syndrome, like I’ve mentioned, the over, overthinking, and it’s the same kind of boundaries, being able to say no, not being overwhelmed by the amount of workload because you’re not able to say no, you’re not able to give a voice to things from this fear of being rejected. So it’s the same kind of traits that’s showing up in the workplace. And so I’m kind of branching out from not just matters of the heart, but in how people are relating as leaders in organizations, and I’m seeing it really impactful play. It can be really impactful in the workplace. So I’m looking to do a master class in a couple of weeks on imposter syndrome for leaders. On the ninth of December, I’m going to be doing that as a free master class. And I’m also looking to do some tomorrow. I’m doing a public speaking event and talking to leaders about the resilience that comes from, you know, my journey around Australia, but the resilience that comes from recognizing the challenges that we’ve overcome in order to have the courage and the confidence to see ourselves as self leaders and so, yeah, it’s a slight pivot, slight change of where I’m going to be going. But the issues are the same kind of thing. But I just like to mention as well that what I talk about as an anxious attachment isn’t necessarily anxiety, which is a different Yeah. So anxiety, my understanding, or the way I approach anxiety, is it’s not something that people have. A lot of people talk about, I’ve got anxiety, but that’s impossible, because anxiety is something that comes and goes right. So it’s not like, let’s say I’m color blind. If I’m color blind, I’m going to be color blind all the time. It’s not going to be switching on and off, right? That that’s something that I have. But anxiety is something that I do. It’s a thinking I do it right? And when we can actually concept, conceptualize that, we can take control of it. We can recognize, well, if it’s something I’m doing, I can actually stop it too. So anxiety, if we were to break down, what does it mean? What is actually anxiety? I mean, would you like to have a guess at what anxiety work if you were trying to describe it to somebody? What do you think it is?

 

Manon Bolliger  28:58

I mean, there’s lots of ways of describing it, but rather, you go ahead with your framework.

 

Tzara Attwater  29:04

Okay, yeah, just to let, just to try and let people understand, or have a have a little think about, what if they were going to describe anxiety? How would they describe it? I say it’s a, it’s a projection onto a future event and making that future event the worst case scenario, and then making that worst case scenario real in this moment now. So it’s a projection projection about, let’s say I’m sitting in this I can see there’s a beautiful background behind you that looks like you’re outside. You know, I can make this fear that there’s going to be a rhino come through the door and and start worrying about these Rhino that’s coming through the door and making that real in this moment. That’s anxiety, but that’s a thinking process. It’s important. We’re doing. It’s not something that we have, right? fBut people feel anxious, like in a an overwhelming anxiety, and they’re not always associating it to a thought. Sometimes it feels like the thought comes after, you know, they could say, Well, maybe it’s because whatever they’re coming up with, the many lists of things that one could become anxious of. But have you do you know what I mean by when people have this? Sure, but it’s a thing. It’s a meta stating. So the thought actually occurs…so it’s a thought, a fear, a concern, a worry of some kind, and then what happens with the emotions being attached the emotions. It’s the emotions that keep the thought running, and so it’s the emotions that start layering on top of that, and that’s more in the counseling space rather than the coaching space, but it’s really I’m just wanting to touch on the fact that it starts off as a thought, and if we can grasp that, we can get to the point of understanding and be empowered by I’m doing it to myself, and it’s not through choice. I get that. I get that it can be overwhelming and take over for some people in extreme cases, but it is, isn’t something that we have.

 

Manon Bolliger  31:25

No I that I totally agree, absolutely, yeah, and it’s very disempowering to think of it as something we have. You know, it’s like, I would in the past, tell my patients they are not the disease, right? I mean, they have symptoms that can be construed to be XYZ, right? Because a lot of times a diagnosis becomes an anxiety, right? And then if you’re if you believe in the diagnosis fully, you can create and then you just Google, and you can go crazy. You can create it even worse than it is if it actually was, you know, so that separation from these are symptoms. They could add up to this, but they could add up to that. They could in other there’s a bridge, there’s another bridge, there’s a gap.

 

Tzara Attwater  32:19

And I love that. I love the way that you, you use that word separation, because that’s, that’s key for anxiety to try and get some space and some distance for anxious attachment styles for anxiety, just to be able to get that space. Yeah, that separation, it’s, I think it’s really key if we can get that distance and be able to see, hold on. You know, this is something that I’m doing, or I’m thinking, and I have a choice here, to be empowered by it. I think, to be empowered that we can, we can change that when, when we, when we run the belief that we have this it’s like it’s out of my control. I’m and I use this word with full compassion, like I’m a victim to it, right? But when we are in that mindset, we’re actually enabling the anxiety. We’re actually not empowering ourselves. We’re kind of washing our hands of it, saying there’s nothing I can do about it. It’s enabling that helplessness and that victimizing, which people can just get really, really trapped in. And so, yeah, I’m I’m really, really, really passionate about empowering people to be able to be their best and know that they don’t have to be had by these thinking patterns. It comes back to what it was saying before about what am I telling myself that’s not true,

 

Manon Bolliger  33:43

Right. Exactly, yeah. And I think too, you raised the idea, at least just the idea of getting from what you’re saying is, when you’re in an empowered state, you are the creator of your reality, right? Which means that you have control. It doesn’t mean everything works out the way you thought it should. But if you’re actually participating in it with consciousness and responsibility, you know, which is where the idea of like, Oh, here’s that thought again, this isn’t serving me, and we’re going down. Let’s drop the thought, what next action can I do that will help me, or like you said, acknowledging on some level what you’ve done that was right. That really was good, because we don’t celebrate as you know, we don’t, you know, we don’t spend time going, Hey, that was great.

 

Tzara Attwater  34:46

Wel, we’ve got this, I mean, I don’t know, in Canada, but in Australia, we’ve got this tool, poppy syndrome, you know, it’s like, you can’t, kind of show what you’ve you can’t, you don’t go up to somebody say, Oh, I’ve just done this amazing thing. I’m incredible. We just don’t talk like that. So it’s in the narrative of the language that we get told, told, taught as children to not really kind of stand out in any way, to you know that that’s part of that narrative. So, yeah, I think, I think what you’re touching on is is really beautiful. I think it’s it’s also really kind of easy for us to feel in a happy and contented space, to be, oh, just be empowered and just be, just be your true self. But when you’re in that kind of, I call it funk, when you’re in that kind of mental, let’s say you’re in the elevator with the bully, and you’re in that and you can’t kind of get yourself out of that space to check check in with the body. Where am I feeling this in the body? Those are really good triggers, because by the time you’re feeling it in the body, you know you if you’re getting sick, that’s because it’s been a thought in your process for a while. And so check in with where you’re feeling in your body. Check in with your thoughts. Question, you know, what am I telling myself that’s not true. What am I listening to this bully for? What? What? What’s the purpose of doing that? And you know that therapy where you can put the monster in an imaginary chair in front of you and have a conversation with so that that’s part of that bully in the lift exercise to kind of go, okay, I can open the door. I don’t have to listen to you in what I what you’re telling me isn’t true. And you know true for you in that moment, right? Is what I mean. Because your truth is, is a partial truth. We’ve got, we’ve got, what’s happening in reality, right? But if you’re, if you’re listening to too much negativity, it’s going to have an effect on the physical body. And so that’s going to be a good trigger to see, am I getting headaches? Am I feeling sick? What do I need to calm down on? So those are all really good triggers to try and help you get back to that empowered state, because it can be very difficult when you’re in that, in that funk.

 

Manon Bolliger  37:03

Yeah, yeah, I certainly have experienced that myself, you know. So I, I, you know, it’s, it sounds like you said, it sounds easy when you’re on the other side of it. And maybe we have to learn. Maybe that is human nature, you know, and that’s the learning and whatever we got from it is, was necessary at that moment? Maybe. And I think the more you’re aware that you’re in it and you want out, and you know that people got out, you know it’s possible, right? We all have ways, but it’s, it’s possible.

 

Tzara Attwater  37:42

And I think to see it as a process as well. I think, you know, a lot of the people I deal with with anxious attachment styles have a very black and white thinking it’s always this or it’s that, and that can really inhibit us from that growth and development to sort of go, you know, I walked in on my partner. So that means I’m never going to be able to find another partner. I’ve got to build a wall around my heart. It’s that it’s this or that it’s this black and white thinking, rather than seeing it as a process, like when we were learning to walk, it’s a process of how we do it, that that event happened back there. It wasn’t pleasant, but it doesn’t have to dictate the rest of my life. It doesn’t have to impact every other decision that I’m making. Yes, I don’t want to be hurt again, you know. Yes, I want to protect my heart, but the protection of that that we’re seeking can potentially be detrimental and actually causes more suffering in the long run, and so that black and white thinking just to catch it, just to be able to sort of bring awareness to that as well.

 

Manon Bolliger  38:48

Great. I think I’m going to leave you with those last words, because I think that’s very important. The black and white thinking can be our detriment, rather than just opening the possibilities.

 

Tzara Attwater  39:01

And yeah, I would like to, I would really like to end, if there was anything that you could take away from this chat today, is to really just ask yourself what you’re telling yourself that’s not true. That has been an incredible mantra for me over the years, when I’m ruminating, when I’m getting upset about something, to just calm the farm and just say, you know, what am I telling myself that’s not true here, and it’s kind of going what are the facts? What do I actually know about the facts? So yeah, I hope that would be of help to the listener.

 

Manon Bolliger  39:33

Well, thank you very much.

 

Tzara Attwater  39:35

Beautiful. Thank you for letting me talk today.

Ending

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