adults were in an emergency. And then I started doing the research and hearing and then we started hearing about it from the Surgeon General in the US and other places that there’s a loneliness epidemic, there’s a mental health epidemic, particularly affecting young adults, but also affecting people of all ages. And so I realized that I can’t really spend time talking to young adults about meaning and purpose unless they can get out of bed in the morning, you know. And they can’t get out of bed in the morning unless they have some clue about plugging in to what gives their heart, what makes them come alive, what gives their hearts. So they’re two interlocking issues. Then I read a book by Lisa D Miller, who’s a neuroscientist, out of Columbia University, and started to tap into her research, and her research shows that the brain of people who have spiritual practices is more resilient to anxiety and depression, and then I had this dawning that, oh, that means those of us who are spiritual leaders and healers, we have what the world really needs right now. I like to use the word soulful practices instead of spiritual practices, because spiritual has been so maligned and has so been misused, and that we have such a history of mostly men using their spiritual power and leadership in ways that violate people. But soulfulness is something I think we can all resonate with. And it takes me back to some of the language of people of color in the American in the American history, you know, like soul food and soulful soul music. And part of what we are up to here is actually inviting a more robust representation of practices. I like to say that that Eastern meditation has crossed the super highway and is now, you know, moved from what was mostly religious spaces into like even science classes and corporations can have a moment of Zen mindfulness, but I would like to see more traffic there of practices that come from more robust, more diverse. We have practices from Ignatian we have practices from the black church tradition in the south of the US. We have practices from Celtic traditions. I’d like to widen that repertoire so that when we think of mindfulness and we think of soulfulness, we’re not only thinking about Eastern meditation. Of course. That’s helpful to some people, but other people need, need something with a different cultural texture, and so that’s what we’re curating.

 

Manon Bolliger  05:27

So how, how do you define what that actually is? I feel like I know what you’re doing.

 

Dori Baker  05:39

It’s a really good question. In the beginning, I thought, oh my gosh, we need to do some research to see if these practices that we’re curating and teaching are working. And I got back in touch with Lisa D Miller, and she’s like the research has been done. Any sort of guided meditation, any sort of practice that slows us down and reminds us that we are part of something more than our own selves, in our circle of our family, you know, anything that slows us down and reminds us that we are part of the seasons, part of nature, part of something more, however you want to name that God, universe, Soul creator, that’s a soulful practice. So I can talk about what some of those are, but before I go there, I want to be sure and name that many of us are. So we need to be so careful, because we have a history of extracting the goodies from Native American brothers and sisters and from African siblings. We white folks, or those presenting as white folks have a history of extraction, and we’re taking great pains, but really it’s great pleasure and staying very, very closely connected to the cultures of origin, the people from those cultures. So we’re not taking grabbing and running those and sharing those practices. We’re inviting them into this conversation, we invite our partners and our colleagues, and we have a diverse collective of people from multiple faiths, multiple generations and multiple ethnicities, and we’re in this mix together, curating and sharing the goodies that I think humanity needs if we’re going to survive.

 

Manon Bolliger  07:19

Yeah, I think so too, and so. And I think it’s when you say, well, spiritual, then slash soulful, which I agree with your understanding of what you’re making that mean, because of the way spiritual also has become misused, I think. But I think it’s also, it’s away from the structured, religious, you know, the all the things that were, I mean, I think we’re in the process of finding out, you know the Vatican and all the dark stuff, and, oh, my goodness gracious. You know?

 

Dori Baker  08:07

It gives my heart pleasure to know that many religious institutions today have really taken that to heart. I was at a funeral recently at a Catholic church, and they had taken so much care to address all of the triggers, all of the ways in which they have done harm in the past. So that, you know, there was a sign the bathroom door that said children of certain age must be accompanied by a parent. You know, like the all of the safe sanctuary work that we have done, I have great, great love in my heart for every religious tradition at the same time I’m aware of the research. They’re not trusted. They’re, you know, we have a breakdown. I like to say the bridges are broken between these practices and the traditions or the places, the institutions that once stewarded them. My friends, where the bridges aren’t just broken. Somebody has poured gas and lit a match. You know, the bridges are gone. So what I’m trying to do is create access. What we’re trying to do is create access to these life giving and potentially life saving practices so that we can get and later, if they want to follow a bread crumb trail back to the or, you know, the origins we’ll provide that bread crumb trail. You can go look for it on our website. But we don’t care if you believe. We don’t care if you belong. We just want to invite you into trying on a practice. Play with it. Most of these practices are evocative and win some and playful and like it. See if it fits for you without having the heavy onus of needing to be a certain identity in order to practice something that connects you to these sources of wisdom.

 

Manon Bolliger  09:54

Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, no. And I think I mean. That’s where, you know, in my practice, when I had a practice, I had the occasion of having, on two separate occasion, ministers, you know, who wanted to speak from the heart. And they found that the doctrines that they were representing and involved in were no longer fitting with them and their beliefs and what they had come to see, and never mind the dark side. This is just the on the front of it, and sort of saying, you know, this has got to change. We’ve lost the essence of it, and maybe it’s time, you know, to re to connect in a new way to all of this. And we had some of the most incredible discussions, just, you know, feeling into, like, guilt, like, what is this thing? Where did this come from? You know, who created that feeling and, you know, and is it really to our best, in our best interest? Like, is it not just a wrong way of thinking, you know, etc, etc, etc. I’m going to go on forever.

 

Dori Baker  11:22

They have language to describe it, right? We know that colonialism, settler mentality, you know, just in the last five years, even some of this language has become more accessible. And we know that it I, I liked to preserve the word dark to talk about beautiful, dark things like the womb and fertile soil and dark, lovely skin. I don’t like to think of dark as negative, but I do know that there is, you know, I want to make a distinction between and just say there has been inherited choices that I would like to be part of reversing in my lifetime, my ancestors contributed to the, you know, the idea of whiteness, and that white people from Northern Europe were in some ways better than people who had a darker more melatonin, more melatonin in their skins. You know, I, in my lifetime, want to be part of reversing that, and the poor decisions, the decisions that came out of greed and superiority. And you know, like, I don’t usually use the word evil, but I’ll use the word evil there. You know that these decisions, it’s in our lifetime that we get the pleasure to collaborate with others to do the repair work. It’s not easy, but to say, oh, we can’t borrow across traditions because we’re in danger of over borrowing or mis borrowing, kind of freezes us as humans, and so I lean into the work of Resmaa Menachem and others who are helping us learn that there should be deep collaboration across and within traditions for the healing of things like white supremacy and patriarchy, if we want to go there and nationalism that doesn’t serve humans flourishing.

 

Manon Bolliger  13:15

Yeah, it’s really part of the conquer and divide, right? It is. It is from a an old paradigm that worked very well. And I think what’s happening is people aren’t buying it. They’re not buying it anymore, right? And it’s like, give us the the real stuff. You know, even now you know, fighting wars for who you know, it’s very clear who were fighting.

 

Dori Baker  13:41

Economic interests. Absolutely. We’re on the same page about that.

 

Manon Bolliger  13:44

You know, it’s like even voting. You know, the way, I’m not saying standing up for rights. Well, one would be recognizing that we have sovereign rights. That would be a big step. But, you know, it’s the whole re questioning, and in my field, certainly, it’s health, you know, it’s like, the whole paradigm of medicine isn’t about health, just like the paradigm of law is not about justice. It’s like, you know, it’s like, we have to really get to…

 

Dori Baker  14:19

And the paradigm of religion has not been about connection

 

Manon Bolliger  14:22

Exactly, exactly, because you got somebody in between another hierarchy and another permission and another stop and another bureaucrat. It’s like, oh, it’s, it’s time. I mean, it’s so exciting that it’s, it’s happening at the same time in every field and…

 

Dori Baker  14:42

It’s a beautiful thing and young people are the leaders, like those under 30. I’m just so amazed at what the universe has gifted them.

 

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Dori Baker  16:01

With the intellect, the creativity, the partners that I’m bringing into the work and that are bringing others into the work. They’re brilliant. They suffer from imposter syndrome, many of them, and I say that too, is a tool of white supremacy that they just you know, but that you know, we can get rid of what we can we can learn how to work better and not be afraid of our own power. But I’ve just, I’m just so convinced that young people, those in their 20s and 30s, know the way they need some elders to help guide them, and I’m happy to be in that position.

 

Manon Bolliger  16:39

Mm, yeah, no, it’s very exciting, um, exciting times. You know, we’re…

 

Dori Baker  16:49

It’s a eally fun way of seeing it, because we can also talk about gloom and doom, or we can say, what kind of people do we want to be as the world as we as the world as we know it is coming to an end. The world as we know it is coming to an end, and that’s going to mean more vulnerability and a lot of hard, hard situations for the most vulnerable populations in the world. And as I mourn that and stay tuned to that and grieve that daily, we can also surround ourselves with practices of community, practices of connection to nature that give us resilience and that allow us at least to be you know, one more self regulated body is a more good world than someone who’s closed and wrapped up and anxious and and not able to care for themselves and others. So we’re talking about culture shift here. I’m so grateful that you know you are training practitioners who work in their spheres, and I’m so grateful that you’re also doing this work of talking about it, because it’s about culture shift. It’s about shining a light on what’s happening so that others can begin to adapt it to their context.

 

Manon Bolliger  18:02

Yeah, no, no, I think I and I find it too. This is part of not being isolated. You know, it is part of reaching out, cross profession, cross discipline, cross whatever, to see that it’s actually the same reality over and over again. And you know, during this time period where it became, I call it the plandemic, because now we know, but so the extra L in there. But the thing is, it, it really helped to make people aware there was horrible things, and I’m not trying to belittle the horrible things that happen and are not yet fully talked about to the extent that they should be, but people realize community matters, and people realize that there are some people that are more resilient. And when you start going well, what is it that they do differently? I think there was an ability to have a very interesting discussion that had we not been, you know, so at least in Canada, I was brutally shut up and, you know, dismissed. I mean, we may not have had the the same wake up call for as many people, you know, because we would say, Oh, my doctor says this. It’s fine, you know, it’s like, well, maybe it’s not. My government says this, maybe it’s not okay, you know. And what do you feel on I don’t feel this is right. Well, maybe that matters. And it’s like going back into really who we are, our sovereign beings, that we are. And this is where all the power is, is recognizing that. So when you brought up, you know, imposter syndrome, it’s like imposter to what we’re not even trying to be, something else, just be, be who you are, you know, it’s, it’s really a shift in we’re not copying anybody.

 

Dori Baker  20:18

Yes, in fact, I think you’re absolutely right that one of the places that we’re making meaning out of the pandemic is to say that we were forced to go inward. We were forced, like, really, like, tune into our DNA. I had already begun doing some disciplined ancestor work before the pandemic, but the pandemic gave me the time and the urgency to really listen to what is within my ancestral ways of being that might be of any use to the world now and during the time. One of the practices that I teach is earthing, you know, to encourage people to get outside. It’s scientifically shown like and every single morning I go outside barefoot, and if you do it early in the morning, those first few moments of sunlight, without any filter through your window or through your sunglasses, lights up our, you know, our hormones to tell us how to get a better night’s sleep, like it’s all but you know, so many of us are not in the habit of going outside until it at all right. And so now, you know, there’s all these practices that I began incorporating into my daily life, and then I just began sharing them. And then I began asking, What are you already doing in your daily life that you may not identify as a soulful practice. And I have, I’ll have an example. Can I tell a story?

 

Manon Bolliger  21:47

Yeah, absolutely.

 

Dori Baker  21:48

I have a friend who is mostly behind a screen all day, and, you know, works three or four different jobs in the gig economy. And I asked him one day we were working on a project together. So we’re here. We are on another zoom call. And I said, you know, it’s nine o’clock in the morning. We both live on the east coast. I was like, what’s the soulful practice that you start your day with? And what’s the most important soulful practice that you start your day with? And he has a house full of dogs and cats, and I thought maybe it was feeding your animals. And he said, Oh, God, no, that’s not, that’s not soulful or restorative at all. You know, they are literally hungry, raving animals, and I feed them. And then pause and I ask myself, What will my first beverage of the day be? Does it need to be espresso? Is this a high? Is this a day where I have to, like, be in the grind of capitalism. Or can I have just a regular dark coffee? Or can I have a cup of Earl gray tea? Or is this a day for kombucha? Or can I just start with water? Like, what is it that it’s gonna that’s gonna meet me where I need to be in the next couple of hours, and that, you know, just that, just that moment to, like, reclaim time as one’s own, instead of I automatically need the full caffinnation first thing in the morning, maybe I can move a little more slowly today. That’s an example of a soulful practice that he was already doing and then came to claim and name, and now he talks about, as, you know, this is the way I start my day mindfully, by slowing down and remembering that I that capitalism is not a given. Some days, it’s a necessary evil, but it’s not always the game that I play. It’s not it’s a construct too, you know. So that’s just one example. Is not feeding the animals. It’s what am I going to drink first?

 

Manon Bolliger  23:44

And I mean, it could even be used in that same way in feeding the animals. One could go back saying, How in what is the state of being that I want to feed these animals in right like, I mean…

 

Dori Baker  24:07

Absolutely. And I have a beautiful practice. I have a place where I can walk in my neighborhood where dogs are allowed to be off leash, and I’m not…I’m not one of the lucky ones who gets to be a dog owner, but I believe in the more you know, and the sovereignty of more than human friends. And so when I see dog coming at me out in this beautiful trail, I get down on my hands and knees and with in a gesture of openness. And the big ones are and I’m over my fear of them, but I just I love making eye contact with someone else, someone else’s beast who is domesticated still like, like, making contact with a beast. Such a wonderful gift in my life. It’s like looking a child or a baby in the eyes, you know. So I try to, like, I just try to think of that as a practice as well. These are some very small ones that I’m thinking about. But I actually do believe our days can be made up of you know we can string together these soulful practices that can create the a day of living and attentiveness to spirit and soul, as opposed to saving it up for Sabbath at the end of the day or doing it all at once in a meditation in the morning. I need it all day long.

 

Manon Bolliger  25:22

I think that that’s right. And I think it’s being conscious as much as one can be. You know, with my with my patients, one of my favorite sort of teachings that they still, they still contact me about it. And I just say is, is this loving to me? And it’s like you ask this question anytime about the food you eat, the water you drink, the walk you’re gonna take, the conversation you just had, or, you know, that may be a…

 

Dori Baker  25:58

That’s a beautiful one. That’s a beautiful one. I have another practice I call tiny arrows of love. And I like to lead people through a meditation where I ask them to go back and remember tiny little phrases that give them joy. And it might be something from their sacred scripture. It might be something, you know, for Judeo Christian people in the Jewish tradition or the Christian tradition, it might be a psalm. But for me, it is the reminder that when I see birds, they make me happy, right? And every time, so throughout my day, whenever I see birds, I stop what I’m thinking, and I say to myself, first, make me happy. And guess what? Serotonin, dopamine, whichever one it is, I’m happy because I shined a little flashlight on that reality. You know, I like to have, like for people to come up with three or four of them, and then over the course of a couple of weeks, which is the one that really works for you? What’s the tiny era of love you can send yourself during the day. And the best ones are the ones like birds that come with a built in reminder. You don’t have to remember it something’s going to happen that will remind you to give yourself that little extra love or that little extra joy.

 

Manon Bolliger  27:16

Yeah, no, I think that’s a that’s a great one. Well, I think those are, you know, we’re, it’s not rocket science. It’s simple. And you think, Oh, it’s so simple. Everyone’s going to do it, but it’s, it’s actually doing it and and incorporating that in your life, and then your life, it changes. It just you see the world differently. That’s how I mean. I don’t know…

 

Dori Baker  27:43

You see the world differently, people see you differently. I do feel like, in addition to sort of like these timely things, like, you know, the ancient mystics had hours of the day, I think community is super important here. I have individual practices like the ones I just described. Excuse me, getting up, earthing, but the practices that I share with others, the practices of storytelling, the practices of even just reviewing the day, the highs and lows, the practices at the beginning of a call, of sharing a breath together instead of just jumping right into the content, but communal practices. There’s something beautiful, not only about the way we remind each other and call each other into partnership or collaboration or maybe accountability, but also I believe they’re just different. When they’re shared, they’re stronger. I recently, you know, post COVID, I was doing yoga at home, and I just recently felt the strongest draw to be back in a yoga studio. And so back doing yoga now for about 10 days, and I’m just noticing that the the collective breath, the energy of breathing together in a room with other people, is what is getting me through these difficult times around politics in the US, it’s very harmful and difficult time for me these days and breathing with other people is part of this, part of what’s going to heal me, body, mind and soul.

 

Manon Bolliger  29:14

Yeah. Great.

 

Dori Baker  29:16

Community is super, super important in that.

 

Manon Bolliger  29:19

So Dori where xan people find out more about you cause our time is actually up.

 

Dori Baker  29:23

I noticed. So they can go to our website, which is ourowndeepwells.com, and there, and under the blogs and the resources, they’ll find practices that we have written about, and we have also created cards, so you can lead these practices, the cards, the leaders cards, or it’s about as big as a journal. I don’t have one handy, have a beautiful piece of art on them. And anybody who’s leading people, whether that’s their children around mealtime conversation, or whether it’s a group of students or in a corporate setting, they can choose from these cards. It’s the practices that they can then lead, and always go back to our website for the deeper, deeper journey of where they came from. But there’s these practice these practice cards that help people very easily facilitate a soulful practice with their circle of influence. So ourowndeepwells.com is the website, and you can also track us on Instagram. We have a lively conversation there. So thank you so much. It’s really lovely to be with you. Thanks for your good questions and your great energy.

 

Manon Bolliger  30:33

Well, thank you very much.

Ending

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