And so when intuition comes through that clear and that loud, I do not ignore it. I had never been to a birth and I mean, pregnant people and breastfeeding kind of intimidated me about it. I know, but I said, okay, universe, if this is what I’m supposed to do, let me do it. And, you know, I looked for schools that would work for my flexibility and I also wanted some professionalism around that. And so a degree in midwifery really made sense for me, a bachelor’s degree. And I found the Midwest college of Utah and enrolled in 2010 and started my journey into becoming a midwife. I attended my first birth in January of 2011.

Cheryl Furer (05:10):

And the other doula was like, this was your first birth. You’re a natural. And I was like, okay, I know I’m supposed to be here. I know this is my journey. And not that there weren’t obstacles on the way, but it’s still, you know, it moved forward, which I felt was positive. And now that I’m a practicing midwife, I mean, my, it just brings everything together. Like everything that I love came together in midwifery. So I think it really was meant for me.

Dr Manon (05:42):

Yeah. It’s interesting how sometimes the path is…….. It’s like, you don’t really get it, right. It’s not based on…….you Had no children at the time either.So you haven’t even gone through it yourself…………You’re called to do this. And then it’s like, what step by step? You just, you just do it. And then more and more shows itself to you as you go down that road. I guess if you had another voice that said, this is not for me, you probably would have checked out it’s funny how, you know, what our journeys really are. Right. They’re all so different. some people have no clue and then sometimes a life situation or trauma guides you to something.

Dr Manon (06:38):

And sometimes it’s just, that’s what you’re doing. And you don’t really know why. Okay. So now that you’re doing this though, which I find fascinating I have three children, they’re all adults. I should say that my youngest is 21 and my son is 12 years older than her, and then I have a daughter in between and they were all home birthed. So I made that decision and I’ll just tell you this story. because I think we can run with this one, but my very first pregnancy, I went to several, you know, not midwives.

Dr Manon (07:39):

I actually went, the conventional route and I had a gynecologist and, they measured my hips and that’s hard to believe at this stage I’m not as tiny as I was then, but then I was like 97 pounds. I was really small, small framed and, Oh my goodness. You know, with the pregnancy, I did gain quite a lot, but I was still tiny frame. So they would measure my, my hips and they said, there’s no way on earth. You can have a vaginal birth. And so I thought…. I traveled a lot and this is, you know, many years ago now. Right. So so I said, well, how do people in Asia who are quite small framed, how do they give birth?

Dr Manon (08:39):

Right. So I, I was, you know, I was in law school at the time. So I was very like, okay, I’m going to get the facts on this one. And so I went to eight different doctors who gave me the same…… So it’s not like I got eight different opinions. I got the same opinion eight times. And that’s where it became really clear that we have this strong thing. We have this, you know, this belief that is based on actually nothing because it’s true. And and so I found a midwife and at the time I was in Montreal and she lived literally across the road. And she had worked with first nations. And so she had lots and lots of experience and she said, well, you know, it’s a sacred moment.

Dr Manon (09:38):

And we’re made to give birth, So she just said, read all these books. And I read one after another of these books of a woman who gave birth, and the process of it changed them, but I felt a safety with it because it was such a innate natural thing to do. So anyway, I defied this, she was willing to defy it with me. And my first my first birth was only seven and a half hours long, So like it wasn’t necessary. And that’s kind of how I began. And then after that, there was no turning back. So, I’m going to pass it to you, but that, I just wanted to share that because this is a subject very dear to my heart. And I’m really glad to see that there are more midwives and that it’s not something that has stopped happening. You know, though, I do feel that it has become very medicalized in some parts of the world. So if you could just speak to that and Share some of your experiences and what you’ve noticed.

Cheryl Furer (10:55):

I’m so I’m grateful that you, even with eight, authoritative opinions, you still went out and sought a midwife who said, I believe in your body, I believe in your ability to do this. And there’s so much grace and empowerment in that because……. That’s our model is that we believe normality. First, we take slight intervention if things are getting outside of normal. So we do the least amount of path to get back into normal, which is how my homeopathy really comes into play. Is that, you know, maybe a homeopathic remedy is just the little nudge that you need to go back into a normal state, or, you know, maybe there’s a herb or nutrition that we can do to bring you back, into a normal pregnancy, labor postpartum. And so we start with that as our foundation. And then, when things, if things are going outside of there, we see if we can get it back in and then we have other interventions we can do if we need to, if we need to move into the hospital setting and, have different pain medicines or something like that. And it’s so I’m really grateful that you found somebody who trusted and believed in birth, honestly.

Dr Manon (12:30):

We’ve been doing it for, you know, for centuries and I think there was a lot of the fear of mothers dying during labor and, there is a history there. But it’s when I looked into that history……it’s a little bit misrepresented.

Cheryl Furer (12:59):

The American medical association was formed two years after the American homeopathic Institute was formed. So in the United States in 1844, the American homeopathic Institute was formed. And then the American medical Institute was formed as a direct competition towards the homeopathy Institute and the American medical institution made it a policy that you weren’t allowed to be a medical doctor and a homeopath, which didn’t work all that well at that time, because homeopathy was very popular in the turn of the century. There were many, many homeopathic schools here. Even some still exist today, although they don’t remember their history. It’s funny how short time and history are. But their campaign was essentially successful. They put the nail into homeopathy around the 1920s and made it, you know an alternative or kind of underground thing for quite a while until it re-established in the seventies 60…… Seventies in the United States.

Speaker 2 (14:13):

Midwifery also became a target of the American medical association. And so the early 19 hundreds, they used anti-immigrant sediments racist sediments to start a propaganda campaign against midwives. And this campaign took about 50 years and in about 1950, they had pretty well eliminated most midwives out of most practices through legislation, through laws and through the media of the public, you know, making it seem like midwives were causing all these problems. When in all actuality midwives were serving their communities. Many black midwives were the ones who kept midwifery alive in this country. You know, from 1619 until until modern day. And honestly, the American medical association really did target, that population, which made women fearful of birth. And then they had go to the hospital and then the hospital practices, weren’t all that great.

Cheryl Furer (15:38):

They did a lot of experiments on pregnant moms and labouring people. it’s actually a really horrid history and there’s a lot of great books written about it. And so for me, my first book that I actually read was pushed and I’m forgetting the author’s name off the top of my head, but I definitely am the type of person who likes the underdog story. And so some people are like, I read spiritual midwifery first and I’m like, no, I read like the problem of the oppression of midwifery ,I wanted to know, like……..

Cheryl Furer (16:21):

Why is it that only 35 States have legal laws for midwifery? Why? I’m looking at my state map sitting next to me, it’s, you know, we’re still illegal in 15 States and there, so when you were asking me about the state of midwifery in the United States, there’s a glass ceiling in a lot of places. And we’re really trying to break those ceilings and get our full scope of care. I practice in Colorado and we don’t have our full scope of care here. We have a decent scope, but if we had our full scope, there would be other variations of normal that we could take. There would be other services that we could provide. We’re not even allowed to really provide well, woman care, which is crazy because the midwife’s scope of care is from monarchy to menopause. In all actuality, traditionally, we are the story keepers of the, of the village of the people We know who was having babies with, who we remember, people’s grandparents, you know, we’re the keepers of the societal fabric as far as I’m concerned.

Dr Manon (17:43):

That is the truth …because I actually, have my master’s of law was…….. My interest. I wanted to really know why some of these so-called alternatives that were actually traditional ended up losing their place. I looked at the flexor report and I looked at me the campaign for public safety, right. Which is an interesting positioning. And if you do enough fear and enough misinformation, and you target, you will have over years enough people that lose track of the history and actually disconnect from their body, money in and of itself is not the problem. It’s who controls what amount of money and what for. So if suddenly you feel that the hospitals are the safe place and that you have to have everything available because it’s not safe or natural to give birth. Then of course all the drugs that are available are available there.

Dr Manon (19:09):

“Essential, “which is like an insane paradox, except if you understand that in this paradigm, of course, that makes sense, right? Because if you had women believing in their bodies, taking care of their bodies, looking after their wellness, understanding everything that’s happening, you know, for them through them. And they could, you know, make simple corrections like with, like you said, like with homeopathy, it’s really during birth and in the preparation of it, it’s harmless to the child and it makes a massive difference. And so does, I don’t know if you’re familiar Bowen therapy I use that also to train other midwives and doulas to learn that as well, because it’s simple, simple little adjustments, totally painless that relaxes the pelvic floor, or, you know, we say that if you’re giving birth, there’s tightness in the jaw.

Dr Manon (20:09):

Well, if you open your mouth and relax, while everything goes much easier, and there’s, there’s ways of just tweaking a little bit that just are so impactful and, you know, really allow the woman to give birth, which is our natural right. And it’s a Rite of passage as well, which is, so lost…. So I love that you’re identifying the history, to the beautiful history of this, and also bringing in this whole race issue. You’re absolutely right. You know, that the keepers of this we’re really predominantly black woman, right. It was a huge part. And removing it is, is also an interesting safety measure. You know, it’s like, you’ve got to look at the politics behind this, it’s very scary. So what do you see now happening with you know, with midwifery and what do you tell women who don’t know this history, which after this podcast they will. But are you doing home births now or both?

Cheryl Furer (21:31):

Yeah. I have two different practices and three different ways that I work with midwifery. So I do have a home birth practice. I’m in Longmont, Colorado, and I see people locally. I also teach midwives at the Midwest college that I went to school in at and it’s distance education with students who get their clinical experience with local preceptors. So that also is a really beautiful way that I can support midwives who are joining the force of midwifery and the wave of midwifery, if you will. And so I’m the director of student services there. And then the third way, I just, I love it. The third way that I support midwifery is I offer online coaching. So because of the history, and because I understand, I understand women that would want to choose a hospital birth, and I don’t want to pass judgment on them.

Cheryl Furer (22:42):

I understand that history. if I had babies before I started learning it. I probably would have gone that same route, because we don’t know, we’re not taught in our society. We don’t see it. You know, many of my clients, this is their first time seeing a natural birth or any birth, you know, they’ve never been around their friends who have been breastfeeding or what have you. So the third way that I’m supporting midwifery is that I’m offering online midwifery coaching for women who are having hospital births. And this way of holding that space is I have a structured program where we go through several weeks together in a small group. So small group, prenatal care. I don’t know if you’ve experienced that with any of your children?

Dr Manon (23:38):

It was available by the third one.

Cheryl Furer (23:46):

It’s a beautiful way to gather in a group of people that are also having babies at the same time you are. And, you know, somebody will ask a question that maybe you didn’t even know that you might be interested in, you know, and it’s a great way of exchanging information. And so this particular program has six weeks prenatally and then that same group gets individual consultations with the midwives. And then postpartum, we follow up because this is the part, I think that a lot of birth workers. So I’m talking about doulas, midwives, childbirth educators. We all like focus in on the pregnancy, which is awesome. Like we should be, this is a time, like you said, a Rite of passage. But then postpartum, the medical model is very, very poor in the postpartum period. Midwives do better. And, and yet where our support groups, we have lactation groups, you know, we have ways of gathering.

Speaker 2 (24:59):

But this program or this curriculum that I have includes time in the postpartum for the small group to come back together. And the thing that I really love about it I was speaking to one of my mentor midwives recently, and she was like, Oh, I used to do things like that. And those people are…..their kids are grown and now their kids are like getting these friendships and relationships that can last the rest of their life. You know, like, I’m really excited to offer it in an online setting. And because I have so much experience with cultivating culture online, through the college that I went to school and work at. And also just being a midwife, like being able to hold that space for people. I’m like really, really excited about that. And that’s a new venture that I started this year, not because of the recent events with stay at home orders, but in spite of it, actually, I had already been planning this.

Dr Manon (26:06):

The advantage of the piece that is on online too, is it actually can reach even more people.because it’s education, right. Ultimately reeducating what most women don’t know anymore and don’t trust anymore, in so many of the patients that I mean, of course they got converted, but I’ve had 30 years in my practice as a naturopathic physician. And they come because they realize that they don’t want to be on all kinds of menstrual painkillers and they understand the side effects of all these drugs, if they’re on it forever. And then they wonder about fertility and they have fertility issues, and then it goes on and on and on. And they’re not putting all the pieces together that, you know, you can’t go playing, you know, drug parties with parts of your hormones and your body, and then expect to have natural anything because your body’s programmed to be reactive to whatever medications.

Dr Manon (27:23):

So you come out and, and then your baby wants to breastfeed. Well now you’ve actually taken somewhat questionable things, even if it’s okay or approved you know, it goes into the breast milk, and then your young baby has all this stuff in them. Right. And, that is, Oh, well, then I won’t breastfeed. And then you lose all the immunity that we’re here to, to transfer naturally, but not, and let alone the vaginal passage, which has all the flora that the baby receives, which, because it really doesn’t have its own immune system till six months. So that is how you’re going to get it. Plus, you know, the claustrum and everything from the milk. So it’s like where we’re missing out on understanding how our natural immunity is actually built, you know, and then we’re in a panic society now going, Oh, there’s a virus that’s attacking.

Dr Manon (28:28):

And it’s like, well, hello. You know, what about our immunity? What about what we’re naturally able to, do and tweak, like you say, it’s simple things.like, vitamin D and Oh, finally after, I don’t know, 600 studies now, I think it’s almost made the news And it’s like, yeah, that could be a small element……. maybe getting some sunshine like go figure. And the thing is, it’s simple things that often make the biggest difference. And it’s not cool because it doesn’t make money.

Dr Manon (29:10):

When it’s patented……….. If it’s not patented, then it’s like, well, you know, it’s not really worth it. And I think we’ve moved so much into a, a medical model that isn’t serving the individual needs, it’s all about disease management and it’s all about…..when our systems broke then. ……Yeah. So I see midwifery for me as like a complete opening. There’s a chance there because that’s when women can wake up and go, wait a minute here, what am I going to eat? You know, what am I going to put in my body? And then, you know, questions like when, or what regiment and you know, whether when one vaccinates or, or whatever, like, I don’t want to get into that whole issue.

Dr Manon (30:17):

because it’s so hot. Right. But the thing is, if the baby doesn’t have an immune system till six months, I would question it, I would look at what’s happening in other parts of the world, the USA has the highest ever vaccination right. Compared to you know, anywhere else. So if it’s based on science alone, then why isn’t there some consensus. So for me, this is the time to openly question all things and we’re bringing, you know, life to this planet. So, and look at the state of the planet right now, it’s like, let’s wake up, you know? So anyway, enough about all this I want you to share a little bit more………….I guess, one of the things that a lot of my patients were saying is like, Oh, well, I just can’t deal with the pain. What, what do you how do you address that?

Cheryl Furer (31:23):

This answer actually speaks to both of the things you were just speaking about. So, the decisions around vaccinations, the decisions around food, like everything, there’s a level of trust that gets built during pregnancy or gets broken down. And I think that that is also part of this part of pain management that you’re speaking to isWhen you, have people around you that are loving you and supporting you and helping you through this process of bringing your baby into the world and you trust this person, you know I see my clients at all of their prenatals for over an hour or an hour, about 45 minutes to an hour for each of their prenatal visits, I can do their vitals in five minutes. I don’t need the whole hour to take a set of vitals. But what happens is that we talk and they learn about, I learn about them and we build trust. And when you’re surrounded by all of that trust and love in your birthing process, I believe that they can do it. And I believe that if we need other interventions, they’re available, we’ll come to that bridge. If we need to cross it, that’s okay. And you’re surrounded by trust and love.

Cheryl Furer (33:04):

And so when it gets hard, we’re here for you. I’m going to help you, Like I’m going to help you take a breath. I’m going to help you manage it. And one great quote is I can do anything for a minute and natural contractions have a rhythm to them. If you’ve ever seen pictures of, you know, someone who’s giving birth and they’re almost falling asleep, you know, we create this environment where I would, if somebody could sleep between the three minutes between, and one minute of the contraction, three minutes, which we were gonna make it, you know, their body is gonna work and, you know, release their baby into this world. And they can how they can, you know, work on that because it’s an intense moment of time and we’re there to like, again, surround them with the trust and love that helps them navigate this journey that they’re on. So it’s a really empowering experience, honestly. that’s why we do it.

Dr Manon (34:25):

it’s interesting when you were sharing that, I was thinking it is intervals, right. It’s almost like right now, I’m on a self-imposed what is that called? You know, when you do exercise high intensity, and then there’s a word for that.

Cheryl Furer (34:46):

The intensity interval training,

Dr Manon (34:49):

Interval training. Exactly. And I was thinking, wow, I’ve got to get through that. because it, isn’t easy to get into the mindset of that, but there are the breaks and then you do recover and then you know, that it will end. It’s not going to go on forever. it’s an acute stressor to your body……. With the goal. So the goal is always what keeps me going, is like, okay I need decent muscle mass. And I’ve been working a lot on my computer, much more than ever. And it’s because I’m creative and I’m creating things and I’m loving the podcast but that’s all sitting, it’s hard to walk around doing interviews. So it’s okay. Well, I have got to take this part seriously and I just made that connection.

Dr Manon (35:43):

It’s like, there’s an absolute feel good moment when it’s done. And then all it is, is all you’ve done really is like, tear your muscles and they’re going to regenerate. But when you do this for birth, you got a baby at the end. It’s like, I mean, the prize is so massive that, if you can look at it, it’s a stint. And the more you relax in that, the easier the birth is. So I think and the more you understand the process, and that’s what I find, you know, education and understanding is so crucial to the trust and letting go. It’s like, ultimately sure, it’s about trusting you, the relationship they have, but it’s trusting themselves, you know, and trusting that.

Dr Manon (36:40):

so as I went with my births I think the second one was three and a half hours and the last one was an hour and a half like, okay, wow. Like it’s almost not long enough.

Dr Manon (36:55):

It’s like, where was my transition? But the thing is when you, when you learn to deal with pain, if you see it differently, I think you have a different experience of it. And now we know that we understand the science of pain. It actually…… There’s no pain molecules per se. It’s really your ability to stay in that relaxed state, you know, to bring in that, that parasympathetic mode in between the intense sympathetic pushes, it’s necessary. And that’s how we’re made. We’re beautifully made. Right, that makes me so happy to relive a little bit of all this through you……….so either women or men who might want to become midwives or women and couples on the kind of edge of like, should I call a midwife or not? Because my audience is kind of both what would you say to either group or both groups?

Cheryl Furer (38:15):

Sure. so those that are interested in midwifery, I would definitely look into getting into birth work and seeing how it fits for you being on call as its a particular lifestyle that doesn’t work for everyone. And that’s okay because there’s so many beautiful ways that if you have a passion for supporting pregnant people there’s so many ways you can do that and it can be through art. It can be through, you know, lactation, it can be through childbirth education. Like there’s just so many different ways that, you know, for any gender, for people to be involved in. So I would say, you know, get involved and kind of see……I know that a lot of people who look at midwifery as like the ultimate thing to do, and I have to refer out to people. You know, I think that my care is awesome and sometimes people want more childbirth education.

Cheryl Furer (39:19):

So I look for those amazing people who are passionate about that to send my clients to and so there’s many, many ways to support this rebuilding of trust in our processes. And then those that are looking for a midwifery or even just considering it in any way, I would definitely suggest like what you did, where you went and interviewed, at least someone, I usually suggest interviewing like three midwives if you’re pregnant and just period and you’re pregnant just to get to know well people and see, you know, maybe you have your awesome gynecologist. You’ve loved their services. I have a nurse practitioner that I absolutely love getting my GYN from. And yet she would not be the right person for me to give birth with. there’s a level of intimacy there that I can share with you one of my favourite tips, if you’d like to hear it.

Cheryl Furer (40:28):

So often when I’m having conversations about who to invite to the birth. And so this includes your midwife. But sometimes people think, well, my parents or siblings, you know, what do we do think about people or that person, and if you could have an orgasm in front of them. So with your midwifery relationship, that trust develops over time, and you will know if that midwife, isn’t the right one for you. We all have different personalities. And if you go to the interview and that person does not match with your personality, we don’t hire them, go to another person, interview them, see how they match trust your gut, trust your instincts. And so if you’re trying to decide whether to invite your mother or your mother in law, think about it. Could I have an orgasm in front of them?

Cheryl Furer (41:23):

And if the answer’s no, then I would probably probably say, let them, you know, if you have other kids watch the kids…..!!!! First photography is always a great job for a family members to take pictures. Although if you want to hire a professional and that’s cool too. And if you are absolutely planning a hospital birth, then seek out online midwifery coaching, like what I’m offering you know, seek out some ways of allowing birth workers into your life. So maybe hiring a doula to support you and advocate for you with your plans at the hospital. And so those are my tips for, you know, rebuilding that trust in ourselves and supporting a birthing process. And like I said, I honour all those choices, you know, I get it. Why people want to have hospital births, it’s programmed into us. This is what society teaches us the whole time. And it’s hard to like go against that. So I understand that ,that’s okay. There’s still people around you that will like love you and hold that space for your birthing process, right?

Dr Manon (42:37):

it’s up to us, whatever experience we choose, what we make of it and what we make it mean. But I do think it’s good to have at least you know, a doula or a health advocate by your side, to really represent what you want.

Cheryl Furer (42:57):

And if you have a partner too the doulas, the whole group, your partner is usually not a birth expert and that’s okay.So the doula can really bring in that hands on support during the process. And postpartum doulas are awesome.

Dr Manon (43:24):

Well, having a team that supports you, I think that’s the key and feeling supported and, and I’m looking for that support, you know, not thinking, Oh, you’re going to just be able to brave it on your own. it was certainly done before, but it’s just great. It’s it’s available now, so that’s awesome.

Dr Manon (43:44):

All right. Well really just one thing, that’s a really important point that you touched on is to don’t feel like, or don’t feel like you have to, or you need to brave it on your own because that, I think that piece is the part that sort of breaks us the most is this like ultimate independence. I’m going to do it by myself. Like it’s actually, birth was never meant to be like that. It’s a process that community is meant to be involved in. So build your support team, build your community. Well, thank you very much.