to understand more of the why. What’s underneath…what’s underneath people’s pain and what’s underneath people’s blockages. I needed to investigate more, but I also needed to look at, I want to make a better difference in the world. It wasn’t for me about a little bit less pain. It was you know; these people are suffering. Their lives are not okay, I wanted to look at how can we actually change their lives? Yes, for sure that there was less pain. But what about more happiness and more energy and more sleep and more just feeling good in their body and their mind and their heart. So that was there my journey went and my journey went into all sorts of places into ashrams and looking at emotions and energy. And I started to play with different modalities and bring them. Keeping the foundation of chiropractic because chiropractic has got a beautiful foundation, which is the body has what it needs to heal. So, I love that. But the part that I wanted to look at was, but hang on, if the body’s not functioning well, it doesn’t mean it’s broken, and it doesn’t mean it’s my job to fix it. Actually, there’s a wisdom in that. So, when I journeyed to really look at unexplored the wisdom of the body and what does it mean and the cleverness of when the body puts stress or tension or shows symptoms. And that was really the birth in spinal flow technique. You know, I’m not gonna say, you know, it’s mine and I created I don’t think there’s anything new, but it was a mixing of everything that I’ve learned. Plus, I’m pretty intuitive. So, for me with my clients I just played, and the results were amazing, and changes happen, and crazy amounts of healing happens. So, at some stage, I was probably asked what are you doing? Like what is it that you’re doing? And I’m like, I don’t know. I’m just doing whatever feels right. And I guess it wasn’t for me that I was like, Yes, I want to create a modality ever, but I did want to stop working seeing people one on one and stopped doing the retreats so that you don’t get to stop unless you pass this on. So, then I went to track what is it that I’m doing why do I put my hands here and why would my hands here does you know maybe an emotion come out of why does this affect that? So, I spent two years tracking the contacts their reactions to create what is now called the spinal flow technique, which I believe it’s a combination of every teacher that I’ve had. And you know, it brings…the main thing it does is it brings in that the body smart, that there’s a wisdom inside. And when you allow the body to do what it knows, you know, healing happens. So, it’s a little bit of a summary of my little story.

 

Manon Bolliger  05:34

Yeah, so in with chiropractic and same with osteopathy, that one of the foundations that we learned is that structure governs function. But you’re talking about more than function here, you’re talking about emotional pain, how one feels like, you know, so it’s mood. It’s beyond, just, like you said, the simple structure and the function of things. You’re…and did this come because patients, because often we attract what we need to learn from at least that’s what I’ve, you know, I’ve been in practice 30 years. And you know, when you need to learn the next thing, then comes the patients, but you have to figure out okay, well, this didn’t work, what else is possible? Right? Did you find that that your patients were coming in with things like, more anxiety or depression or something else? Or that you felt like I need to put this together in a bigger way?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  06:42

Yeah, I know exactly what you’re saying. Because they were coming in saying, I have a headache. And with my knowledge, I’m like, yeah, there it is. It’s coming from there, you know, there’s a blockage that interferes with a nerve. That’s what we learned with chiropractic with osteopathy. There it is. And so then, at the end of the session, their like, Oh, you’re amazing, I feel better. But a week later, or a month, or six months, the same thing, the same blockages would happen. And my thing was, like, well, did I really help? Or did I put a Band-Aid on it for a little moment in time? And then it was like, hang on, can we work out why? Why is the structure and function changing? I like what’s happening because it doesn’t just come. And that’s what made me really look at, if I’m going to really help these people, I need to understand why like, why is your body put that there what’s happening. So, then I really started to investigate into their lives, like, what happened, like tracking their behavior, their choices, and realizing also that if it was an injury, a sports injury, that made sense to me, but my people weren’t coming in with sports injuries. They were coming in with lifestyle with stress with thoughts. And that was what was storing in the body. And we can call it energy, or you know, energy emotion, but reality what it was, it was causing that same harness in the spine, that a fall would cause except a fall, you know, five or six weeks, you know, the injury resolves by itself. But these were deep layers that we’re storing, and perhaps if that energetically you know, if still motion and not motion. So, when there’s no motion in the body, there’s stuckness and harness. So, these, what was getting stored in the body was harness. And it was clear for me that it was not an injury, it was not a fall, it was not a postural thing. It was actually coming from, you know, a lot of their thoughts and their minds and the stress that was storing in the body, which was therefore changing the structure of their spine and their system, which then in turn change their function.

 

Manon Bolliger  07:23

So how did that change the way you would interview, you know, your client coming in? So how would you know? So, let’s take the exact you know, the pains here. Normally, you can just Band-Aid it, fix it, but now it comes back. So how would you go ahead with that interview?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  09:21

That’s such an because, you know, I teach that so much with my modality because it’s about how can you connect your person and let them speak and tell you what’s going on? So yes, they come in with pain. It’s like, tell me all about that. Because that needs to come out. So, we need to hear and to be there for our clients. But once they’ve shared that, it’s like why is that there? And they’re like, Whoa, no one’s ever asked me why. Because often, it could be a practitioner or someone else that’s taken away the power for them to really inquire about why pain. So, I would ask them I’d be like, well tell me why I do think that’s there. And see. And I would also really, I would talk to their heart and not to their minds. Because when I spoke to their hearts, it’s like, well, how does that feel? What happened was often the emotion that was underneath the cause would come to the surface. And then when we’re in a heart based relationship, as opposed to a mind and taking them on a journey from that first visit of, okay, they’ve come in with pain, we’ve realized underneath that there was, you know, they’re stuck in their life, or they’re not happy with their relationship, or whatever’s going on, then my next step would be, you know, what, I want to help you with your pain, but actually, I’d love to help you with your life as well, if that’s okay. And what we would do is we would shift that conversation. So, it wasn’t just not that it was pain focus, that pain made sense, because it was a signal saying, Hey, I’m not okay. But actually, it was like, slowly without interaction was like, can we talk about this, because this is life, this is what’s going to create the happiness, this is the part that they came in. So, I would just shift from a symptom, which would always make sure that that was important that they felt heard, and they could say it to let start to delve. And then slowly, I would take them on a journey with me, like, what do you think is going on? And where do you think that’s coming up and what’s happened for you. And my job was always to empower…I say was because now I teach other practitioners, was always to take the mind journey of empowerment was that I wanted to make sure that every time I saw them, I was bringing them back the confidence to own their body, own their wisdom, and own their choices. So, they would come to me and go, my plan always was at the end, I’d say, you know, what, Paulie, I know exactly what’s going on in my body. This is what’s happening. This is what’s going on my life. This is what I feel, yes, I’m gonna lie on your table. But actually, I know my body and my life. And I’m like, yes. Then I knew that my job was done, because I was empowering them to be their own healer, their own doctor, because I believe that they know more than me, like they’ve got the wisdom they’re the ones doing their lives. So that was my little journey that I would take them on through my practice.

 

Manon Bolliger  12:17

Yeah, it’s funny. We’ve done very similar paths. I don’t know if you…do you know about the Bowen technique?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  12:24

Yes

 

Manon Bolliger  12:25

I’m sure you do. Right.

 

Dr. Carli Axford  12:29

You know, but I know that so many people say that spinal flow is so similar to bone. And then I was looking at what you’re doing. And this is like we’ve both created, it’s amazing.

 

Manon Bolliger  12:40

Yeah, I didn’t, again, I didn’t create Bowen therapy. It was Tom Bowen from Shillong, who came up with the so-called moves, but it was taught mostly very mechanically, a bit like chiropractor in osteopathy. And then, again, with practice and time, and, you know, working close with other practitioners that are seeing, you know, I’m sharing what we’re seeing, it’s like, in the end it is all about the patient, being empowered, taking charge of their journey. And, you know, our role listening to them, and fundamentally believing that they know the solution. Right, which is kind of very interesting. So, when you say in your nose, to find the cause of pain, are you is at this point, is your conclusion that…or, let me put it, you put it in your words, I’ll give you any words on here. But where does pain come from, in your mind at this point? Because you’ve been in practice quite a long time, right?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  13:55

I can only talk about my philosophy and my beliefs. And I do believe that I believe everything, but we all come I think we all come from the body in a different way in the mind, and I think they’re all good. But the way I come from it is from the brain. Like I really look at the brain as the master the controller, as the organ that speaks to us, that keeps us alive, but also has the healing energy for healing, you know, for healing to happen. So, for me, when there’s a signal, like the same signal is like if you’re going to…if you put your hand on a hot plate and it’s hot, there’s a…it can come from a hand it will send a signal to the brain saying hot ow, move your hand away, and I believe came as a similar response. I do believe that it comes it’s a message from the brain to say, hey, there’s a warning signal. And so, for me, that’s why I ran like focused on the brain and the spinal cord, the brain, the spinal cord. To me now that’s one organ in a brain, spinal cord all the nerves that come out to supply every muscle tissue organ of the body. So, my focus is really brain focused on how can we create a free-flowing energy from the brain through the spine, because that’s where my belief of we’re healing intelligence source love flows through. The course of when there’s a blockage in that when there’s a blockage in the communication between the brain and the spinal cord, and a blockage can look like, you know, like a vertebra, that’s just rather than having free movement, like a little bit of harness in there, and that’s a signal of or stress has been stored in the system in the brain spine model. Does that make sense? Or have I just gone a bit?

 

Manon Bolliger  15:39

No, that’s, I mean, that makes sense. On on a very functional level. But where do these seven systems spinal systems, are we talking about, like energetic chakras? Are we talking about? What are the seven energy systems? Or are they energy systems? Like how are you putting…you know, are they fascial lines? Are they? How do you see it working? Our whole body?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  16:09

With my the seven gateways of the spine?

 

Manon Bolliger  16:13

Yeah, your method, I mean, are that the one that you’re talking about. I’m trying. What is the understanding there?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  16:21

So, I’ll have seven gateways or the spine, and they are in regions of the spine. So, you know, we’ve got the awakened gateway, which is right on the cranium, we’ve got the pause gateway, which is upper cervical, so they do go through vertebral levels of the spine, very similar to the chakra system. The chakras, more energetic, more energetic layers, I believe I’m no expert. But what I’ve done is I’ve put it in regions of the spine, based on my findings with people like why when the emotion comes up, is a center gateway, which is the heart area, why is there like a curvature in there? Like some type of kyphosis or scoliosis? Right. That’s the center gateway, that’s the heart, you know, there’s a common blockage that can occur in there, which is, you know, hiding of the heart. So, I have labeled the spine into seven gateways. But the methodology is actually not about it. That’s how we do the assessment to see what’s happening in the body. Where is this stress stored? How can we assess it? How can we look at posture? That is quite a physical examination to do an assessment? Because I do believe that a lot of the clients that see my practitioners want to know why how…how was it was my structure and function. But the way we work is not with that is actually with what I call 33 access points. And they are areas where the meninges, the dura mater. So, around the brain, we’ve got the meninges. And they come through the spinal cord into these specific areas where they’re attached to the spinal column. And to me, there are areas of, you can say love, or portals that when you make a contact there that brings flow and openness to the body. So, in the spinal flow technique we don’t look at, we’re aware of what’s stuck, we’re aware of where there’s blockages, but our focus is never on that we focus on what works, where is the ease? And how can we grow more ease, and how can our contact speak directly to the brain. So, the brain can come and do what the brain knows, which is to heal the body. And it does that by bringing more flow into the system, which can look like a wave like motion through the body by releasing blockages and start the healing process. So, we’re contacting areas of meninges. The meningeal kind of connections between that and the vertebra is where the contacts on the access point. But the biggest, I guess, philosophical difference in a lot of chiropractic techniques, and this is the areas that are stuck, or the body is placed as tension. We’re aware of them and we monitor change, but we don’t focus on what’s broken. We focus on what’s working.

 

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Dr. Carli Axford  20:17

And with that idea is to bring in, I look, when I look at the body, I see ease and I see healing only. I’m aware that there’s stress in the system, but my thing is like the body is perfect and whole. So, when we make a contact on what already works, we’re reminding the brain, the body that they have what it has, they have everything inside them to heal. And so, we’re bringing that focus on, you’re already working, let’s grow more ease more flow into a system that is not broken at all. So that’s where and then we do, I don’t check always just to make sure that any interference is getting cleared. But it gets cleared by the person’s body, because then what the intelligence and wisdom to do that. Right?

 

Manon Bolliger  21:06

I’m looking for parallels to understand that, but it seems like it’s interesting with Bowen therapy, we’ll treat the good side first, when it comes to joints. The idea whether it’s like, you know, the hip or the shoulder, if it’s, you know, there’s an issue there, we’ll do the better side, as if it teaches the other side, how to function, right, like, a reciprocity of size, right? Which it works that way. So, it’s interesting, but your approach is very also, like, psychologically, there’s a lot of work, you know, put the energy on what is good to grow more of the goodness rather than focus. Because what you focus on is what you attract, right? So, if we go into the pain, you know, like a lot of therapists that used to okay, like bang the pain out with pillows, and you’re growing the story, and then you’re growing the pain, whereas if what’s working, it’s a full, it’s complete other angles. So, you’re doing this physically, with the same principle of focusing on what is good. Is that a correct understanding?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  22:22

We know that like everybody knows that, in the mind. Everybody knows that. Most people know that if you start the day with a little bit of gratitude, or you focus on what works, you’re going to have a better day, we know that been told that we practice that with the mind. So, we get up in the morning, and we say, Oh, I’m gonna have a beautiful day, I’m abundant, I feel great, my family is gorgeous. And then we go, and my shoulder hurts, my back hurts, I’ve got a headache, and I can’t walk. And so, what we’ve done is we’ve done this beautiful practice for the mind. And we’ve told the body that it’s broken, and it doesn’t work. And it’s like we haven’t continued because to me, the body and mind are the same organ. It’s the same system. And exactly the same philosophy that everybody’s been talking about. So, what if we started the day and we said, hey, yes, my body, like check in and find the places of your body that works, bring focus to that. Because that’s only going to spread, which is exactly what you’re doing with boulders like, start with what works, remind the body that it knows that there. And the other thing, like, I remember years and years and years of doing this forever, all I’ve ever done my whole life is I have never seen a body that even the person that’s got the most pain, the most disease, the most illness, it’s only ever been about 10% of the body that felt blocked and stuck. But that 10% was causing chaos, I get it. But there was this other like 80-90% that was doing really well and functioning really well and had good flow and good structure and function. But that 10% is where the focus goes. And so, for me, it’s like, but can we focus on the 90% that’s doing really well. We’re aware of the 10% but this 90% is going to grow the other stuff as opposed to all our focus being on unblocked unstuck. And so that’s how I see the body and teach my practitioners it’s like, find what works I promise you there’s places there’s areas that work let’s grow more ease more things that work in the body. So, the body just say that yeah, the philosophy is that which I love. And I try and teach that to go like, what if we start the day like that like scanning the body and saying, You know what, so much of it works.

 

Manon Bolliger  24:57

And how are you finding that the patients are responding to that in, in general, is that? Do they find that like, that makes sense? Are we…is there that level of consciousness where people are like, Oh, well, I’ll play along, I’ll see how this works? Or is there are a lot of resistance to that kind of belief system?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  25:22

I think it depends how they’re coming in. So, most people that see my practitioners, they’re coming in because they’re suffering, they’re suffering, and they’re not okay. So that level of conversation, I don’t think it’s time to meet them with that. So initially, when someone comes in to see one of my practitioners, it’s like, Hey, I get that you’re suffering. I’m here for you. Let me help you. And that works. Great. I can surrender. And in the process of the practitioners helping them, they start to feel better trust their body and get more confidence. And then I believe the conversations come in of like, but what if and what’s happening at home, but I think initially, most people that are attracted to my practitioners, they’re not okay, like, their life is not working, they’re stressed, they body is hurting this disease is illness. So rather than coming into the mind with something they have to do differently, I just want them to lay down and surrender and say, you know, what we’ve got it. Lay down, let’s let the body do what it needs. Let’s let it release tension, bring more ease. So, it’s kind of like just surrender. And then, and then we want to empower, but once their whole body their mind shifts.

 

Manon Bolliger  26:42

Yeah, it makes it makes sense. So do you have any interesting stories, or one of your more shocking, you know, I don’t know, in practice was always surprises, you know, even though you know, things are likely to work out. Personally, I’m always in awe that it actually does that the body is that incredible at it, you know, that it’s capable of healing to the degree that it is. So, do you have stories like that, that stand out? That you share, I’m sure you have thousands of them.

 

Dr. Carli Axford  27:17

So, stories, like all I’ve ever done in my life is witnessed miracles. And now I believe in miracles, I’m like, Well, of course, you know, one of my memories was from my practice, I’m not in practice anymore. But my practice was, you know, a little kid that wasn’t able to move her arms or legs. And she’d come in, and I was like, just, we’re just gonna do this. And I remember her mom coming in and saying, Hi, for the first time, you know, she held a fork, which meant the movement that wasn’t supposed to happen, did. You know working with, you know, different types of paraplegia and having no feeling below, but then watching their pelvis and their legs start to move and twitch, I’m like, there is movement. I’ve had people that, you know, I used to live in Indonesia, and people would come intensely to see me like, three, four weeks and content, people would come in not able to walk, they were able to walk. You know, I’ve had people that were diagnosed for different types of diseases and illness that have reversed. And so, for me, I expect that I have a high level of belief that healing happens, I monitored I watched the body. And I do believe that, you know, when we have disease and illness, there’s layers of stress and tension in the body, when that’s removed, anything’s possible. And I have my own son that wasn’t supposed to be able to see or to hear. And you know what, he’s 18. He’s just moved to Barcelona. And he’s studying chiropractic like, that was my own son that had three loads of scar tissue in his brain from double meningitis that was told, you know, he will turn into they told me a vegetable. So, I, and then I do the same, you know, I went to hospitals, and I worked with children and all types of so much stuff, like I could just go forever, because I’ve seen everything. And I just know and that’s, I guess that’s probably the space that I want to hold in this world. That is like, if you if anyone or anyone that’s listening to this, if they’ve ever been told, you can’t, it’s the essence that you will never, like, maybe that’s not true, because I’ve seen it all. And I do have the belief that, you know, our bodies did get to this way, but they can reverse and change, and healing can happen. But as you would know, as well, you know, the practitioner has to hold that space and believe that as well. So that’s my, yeah.

 

Manon Bolliger  29:56

It supposed to be the challenge at this point. I’m in because we’re both we’re both teaching. Right, you know, so it’s, it’s interesting, I have also stopped my practice after 30 years, for different reasons, possibly, but I live in Canada, normally. And, yeah, it’s, it takes time for the practitioner to really let go, she’s believing what they’re seeing. And, you know, honor that space and not put their own limiting beliefs and limit it, you know, and, and I always say, you know, well, when I don’t know, when somebody comes in with something I, you know, I had not seen, I didn’t know if I could treat it or not, I would say, Well, I haven’t done that specifically. But I have no reason to believe that it can’t work. You know, that was like, a simple, I’m just thinking of a trigger finger. It seems like something banal. But, you know, on the other hand, this is quite inconvenient. And, and then it would just, it would just go away with simple little things. Right? And it’s, it’s that to be able to hold that possibility and reflect it back, be honest, come from integrity, you know, because you don’t want to lie and say, Oh, yes, everything can be treated. And, you know, it has to be, it has to be the truth, and to hold that truth is. Yeah, it’s a learning curve.

 

Dr. Carli Axford  31:30

It sounds like we’re sharing the same message, because I say the same thing. Because my practitioner said, but have you worked with that? Or that I’m like, I don’t need to know the name or know, but I’m better to say to the people, I don’t know. And actually, you know, your body more. And so, does your medical team, because they gave you the diagnosis? This is what I do. Now can we try and see? And so, I’m the same? It’s so good to just be really honest. And go? Have you worked? No, I haven’t I’ve never worked with you, or with what’s happening in your body. But I do believe this, can we see lay on the table? And let’s see. And then. And then also…and that’s what I spend my time to is like, How can I help my practitioners believe the same with that, with that confidence that I do. Because like you said, I only believe this because I’ve done it forever. And I’ve seen it. So, it’s like, we’re on Zoom calls. I’m trying, I’m sharing. I’m like, you know, what, just take my belief until you’ve got your own. Like, there’s another way connecting, then. Because that’s my hardest thing is because when you’ve got somebody that’s coming in, that wants help, you’ve got to hold that space, your belief, more than theirs to say, you’re in the right place. I mean, I’m gonna hold. Yeah. And that’s, that’s true. For practitioners, to believe that.

 

Manon Bolliger  32:53

And it becomes easier when you understand that there are no coincidences, because that person came to see you. Because they did and it’s their time to go to whatever level they need to at that moment, right. So, it’s not, it’s not a coincidence. So, it’s kind of your job to hold the space. If you see it that way, sometimes, that’s a practical way of looking at it that, you know, some of the students are going, okay, okay. So, you know, because the imposter syndrome is so huge, right? Like, especially when you don’t appear to be doing a lot. Right? The more you know, hard work and the more sweat you do like if you were doing deep tissue massage work, okay, you’re definitely the practitioner who does the work when you’re just playing with the body lightly and honoring its capacity. You know, you gotta hold the space.

 

Dr. Carli Axford  33:59

And it’s hard because my practitioners like but I’m not doing anything I’m like, Yes, that’s good because it’s not about you, it’s about them. I’m just helping you to match tone and be there so they can feel them. But should I do it? I was like, Oh, now your brain is talking about your heart. It’s like you believe that their body has what it takes to heal then you can actually connect in so there’s no you know them and healing can happen but you’re right because it’s like but if I did, and I’m like that’s your brain fix it mode going and it is it’s like but I don’t do anything I look at what’s happening. Everything’s happening in that space. And it can be hard. A lot of my people come from a massage or kinesiology where they’re doing so much and we spinal flow, it’s actually just a surreal hold of a contact and watching that flow of energy so they like is that it? I’m like yes, this is everything. It’s tricky to share that do less think less fix less. Yeah, we tend to…It’s an interesting journey, I think, as a teacher, because. And also, like, I think what you said before, it’s like, but how can you not like this so much suffering in the world, these people have come to you, they’ve actually said, Help me, you got to be there. You have to calm they’ve chosen you to be there. Like, they’re asking for help. They’re not saying, you know, they’re actually just saying, like, help me. So, what do you need to do to actually be that for them? It’s, yeah, I do put a little bit of responsibility on my practitioners, and we got to do this together.

 

Manon Bolliger  35:41

So, I mean, our time is literally up. But I just wanted to know, who do you train at this stage? What’s the background necessary? If people were interested to work with you or your technique? What’s the background?

 

Dr. Carli Axford  35:57

There’s, I have people from everywhere. The background is to be passionate about healing, and to want to join a group of people that are doing good things. I’ve got people that have never done any healing. There you know, being truck drivers or nurses or cleaners or moms and they’re like, I want to learn this. I’ve got people that are from you know, massage or kinesiology that go I want to learn more about the spine. But then I’ve got you know chiros and physios and the medical profession that go they want to learn energy and emotion. So, I sit in the middle with this, everybody is welcome. You don’t need any experience at all, just a willingness to make a difference and do good stuff in the world.

 

Manon Bolliger  36:49

Another thing we share. Anyway, it was absolutely a pleasure to get to know you and know that this is the energy that is spreading in the world and I’m gonna definitely look into what you do in more detail and stay in touch.

 

Dr. Carli Axford  37:04

Thank you so much for having me.

 

Manon Bolliger  37:07

Thank you.

ENDING: 41:33

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