they’re unhealed.

Dr. Manon  04:19

Yeah. And it always takes two to tango, right. There’s the facilitator. And I’m not much into victimhood. That’s not really how we change the world. So I appreciate what you’re saying. It’s like, what can we do? And, it’s also to notice, like you say, it’s a two-way thing, it’s not just only work on your own development, because otherwise, that’s another, you know, deep dive into nowhere.

Dr. Debi Silber  04:48

Sure, because here’s the thing, you know, we have to once get to understand these things, then that we look at people very differently and we sharpen our BS meters, we can sniff that stuff out in a minute. And we actually wouldn’t even be attracted to that same level of consciousness. We’ve changed. We’ve grown, we’ve healed. So it’s a whole different dance. Once we’ve done that work, and this is something that I saw in the study clearly, but I’m happy to go through the discoveries if that would?

Dr. Manon  05:21

  I would love that. And if you have examples or something that makes it really real, that helps.

Dr. Debi Silber  05:29

Yeah, so the first thing was that there’s actually this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal, it’s now known as post betrayal syndrome. And we’ve had over 13,000 people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they’re struggling. And what’s so interesting is, and I actually pulled some stats for you, I’m happy to share. But we’ve all heard Time heals all wounds. And there’s a question on the quiz that reads, is there anything else you’d like to share? And people are sharing things like, my betrayal happened 40 years ago, I can still feel the hate. My betrayal happened 35 years ago, I’m still unwilling to trust, my betrayal happened 10 years ago, it feels like it happened yesterday. So that saying of Time heals all wounds, I have the proof that’s not true. We heal from betrayal when we face it, feel it, heal it. There is this collection of symptoms, and so often we attribute them to aging or stress or whatever. But so often, it’s an unhealed betrayal. So, here’s just some of the things we found, like some 78% constantly. 78% of the people from this, you know, that we’ve pulled, constantly revisit their experience. 80% are hyper-vigilant, 94% deal with painful triggers and I mean just that alone is exhausting. Here are some of the common physical symptoms, 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 47% have weight changes, and 45% have digestive issues. That’s so common, some mental issues. So now imagine going through some of those physical issues. And now on top of that, 78% are overwhelmed, 70% walking around in a state of disbelief 68% unable to focus, and 62% unable to concentrate. So now here’s this chaos, and this mental overwhelm. That’s not even the emotional symptoms. So now, emotionally, 88% deep, deep sadness 83% angry. So now mix anger and sadness, that’s a lethal combination right there. 80% are anxious, 79% are stressed. Here’s why I wrote the book Trust Again. 84% have an inability to trust 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they’re afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don’t know how.

Dr. Manon  08:12

Well yeah, well, it just shows how any deep stressor, whether it’s an emotional trauma or physical trauma hits all levels, right. Not just our emotional body, but our physiology. And we’re in a type of long term fight-flight, right, which a lot of these symptoms are, you know, sympathetic overdrive, stored, cellular memory stored,

Dr. Debi Silber  08:40

The issues are in the tissues. Absolutely. And you know, what was so interesting though, was, there is a difference between healing from betrayal and healing from other life crises, death of a loved one, disease, natural disaster. Originally, I was studying betrayal and post-traumatic growth, you know, like sort of the upside of trauma, how that trauma, whatever it is, leaves you with a new awareness, perspective, insight that you didn’t have. But I had been through the death of a loved one. And I had been through disease, and betrayal felt so different for me, but I didn’t want to assume. So I asked all my study participants and I said if you’ve been through other traumas besides betrayal, does it feel different for you? Hands down unanimously, they said, Oh, my gosh, it’s so different. And it’s so different because it feels so intentional. So we take it so personally, you know, if we lose someone we love like I lost my mom, you grieve, you mourn, life will never be the same, but you don’t necessarily take it personally. Betrayal attacks the entire self and the whole self has to be rebuilt. Confidence, a sense of belonging, rejection, worthiness, trust. So when that’s all rebuilt, it didn’t kind of qualify as post-traumatic growth. It was really Post Traumatic Growth plus rebuilding of the self. So I’ve coined a new term post betrayal transformation. So when you have fully healed from betrayal, that’s the state you’re in. So that was the second discovery, which was so exciting because there was this clear difference between that attack to the self.

Dr. Manon  10:24

I can see that. Because it’s like, the premise of our connection to another is it’s we have to trust ourselves in it. Right? And you have to have self-doubt. You’re saying like, was I wrong in my assumptions, in my trust? Is it me? I can echo what you’re saying in the patient’s life to help to deal with that for sure.?

Dr. Debi Silber  10:52

The very people or person who helped to create that sense of safety and security is now the very person who destroys it. So it shatters, absolutely shatters any sense of safety and security. So the third discovery was, while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime and many of us do, if we’re going to fully heal, we’re going to move through five now proven, predictable stages. What’s even more exciting about that is, now we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage, and what it takes to move from one stage to the next. So now healing from betrayal is predictable. And I’m happy to go through the stages.

Dr. Manon  10:52

I would love to hear them absolutely.

Dr. Debi Silber  11:54

And in Trust Again, we do. It’s a deep dive we get through each stage and the experiential exercises that will move you from one to the next. So,  here are the stages. So the first is, it’s like a setup stage. And I just saw this with every study participant. Me included. If you imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody was a real heavy lean on the physical and the mental, and kind of neglecting the emotional and the spiritual. So what does that look like? It looks like we’re really good at thinking and doing, and kind of neglecting the feeling and being. But it’s in the feeling and being that’s where intuition lies. And we so often we turn that down. That’s not to say if we’re busy just doing it’s a set up for betrayal. It’s just what I saw. Stage Two. By far, the scariest stage, this is the shock. This is D-day, discovery day. And it’s the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview. This is like where someone just takes a mask off and says, you know, this is who I’ve really been this whole time. And so we ignite, the stress response. Now we’re headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Our mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm, this makes no sense. We can’t wrap our minds around what we’ve just learned. And our worldview is shattered, our mental model, you know, these are the rules, this is how it works. Don’t go there, trust this person. And in a moment, everything we’ve known to be real and true is no longer. So the bottom truly has bottomed out on us, it’s terrifying. I remember a study participant saying you know what it feels like? It feels like, imagine every negative emotion you can experience. You can feel getting punched in the gut and losing a child in a crowd at the same time.

Dr. Debi Silber  13:45

Which is just horrible.   But think about it. if you’re walking down the street and the bottom suddenly bottoms out on you, what would you do, you would grab hold of anything and everything you could to stay safe and stay alive? That’s stage three, survival instincts emerge. It’s the most practical of all the stages. If you can’t help me get out of my way, how will I survive this experience? Who can I trust? Where do I go? But here’s the trap. Once we figured out how to survive because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma from where we just came from. It’s like, we’re like whoa, okay, I’m good. And we try to make this work. We don’t even know there’s a stage four and stage five. And when we’re trying to make this work. Now at the same time, we start getting these small self benefits, secondary gain from being here, we get to be right, we get someone to blame. We get a target for anger. You know, we get sympathy from everybody we tell our story to. And then while we’re in that space, the longer we’re there now the mind starts doing things like well, maybe you deserved it. Maybe you’re not all that. Maybe you caused it, right? And we started doing these things. So now we’re forming deeper and deeper roots in a place, we just do not belong. While we’re there now like energy attracts like energy. So now we’re calling situations and circumstances in people towards us for confirmation, this is where we belong, it gets even worse, don’t worry, I’ll get out. Now, because we’re here, and we have no idea there’s a stage four and a stage five. This is the stage where we start using things like food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy, reckless behavior because we’re not happy. But we don’t know there’s a way out. So we do this for a day, a week, a month, a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years. And I can speak with someone, let’s say 20 years down the road, and they’re like, you know what, I’m ready to deal with my food issue, I’m ready to deal with my drinking. And I say, Well, does it have anything to do with, you know, betrayal, this, oh, my gosh, that happened 20 years ago, you see. But it was never healed. So most people find themselves in this perpetual holding pattern, which is stage three. That’s where most people land and stay, if you’re willing to let go of your story and all the benefits you get, and all of that you can move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. Here’s where you accept, I cannot change this scenario, this situation, but I can control the meaning I make, what I do with it, all of it. And this is, I always liken this to if you’ve ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever your stuff isn’t all set up, it’s not quite cozy yet, but it’s going to be okay. When you’re in this stage, you start turning down the stress response a little bit, you’re not quite healing just yet. But you’re not causing the massive damage you are causing in stage two and stage three. And what I found most interesting to this stage was, think about it, if you were to move, you don’t necessarily take everything with you. Right, you don’t take the things that don’t represent the version of who you want to be in this new space. And what I found was, if your friends weren’t there for you, here’s where you let them go. Because you’ve outgrown them right here. And when you’re in this stage four, and you’re making it your own, you’re setting up this mental, emotional, new space, you can move into stage five, the most beautiful stage healing, rebirth, and a new worldview. The body starts to heal. You know, now there’s time to eat well, and exercise, and self-love, and self-care. You didn’t have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do. Now you want to do that. Your mind is changing. You’re making new rules and boundaries based on what you’ve experienced. And you have a new worldview based on all you’ve been through. And remember, in the beginning, that the four legs of that table, we were only working on the two legs, physical and emotional, by this point, were solidly grounded. Because we’re focused on the emotional and the spiritual too, those are the five stages.

Commercial Break  18:01

Hi, it’s Dr. Manon and I just want to take a moment commercial break, to ask you to subscribe to my podcast, and kindly leave a comment if you’re enjoying this. And also, just to let you know, I have tips for people in health looking for solutions to just a variety of issues. It’s more like an attitude of health. And they’re entertaining short videos. And that’s, you can find those under drmanonbolliger.com/tips The link is here. And I look forward to hearing from you.

Dr. Manon  18:45

Yeah, fascinating. But I can see how it makes sense for many people. And also, many therapies are sort of aimed at and facilitate this being stuck in stage three. You know, Tell me your story again, and again. And again. And, and it’s like, even though we change our stories as we heal, of course, there is an attachment to the safety of the story, especially when you get a response to it.

Dr. Debi Silber  19:19

Exactly. Yeah, you’re so right. And we don’t want to be what you know if that story becomes our identity. We don’t want to be without an identity. So if you can’t imagine who you’d be without it, that story is going nowhere. And I always have this visual of let’s say someone on a trapeze. And here they’re holding on, you know, here’s that stage three they’re holding on. They see the other bar, they grab it, that’s stage four, but you’re not going anywhere until you let go of that first bar. And that’s why so many people get stuck in that story. Yes, they need to make sense and make meaning out of it. But once they do, the story, no longer story. I mean, when I think about my story, the most impactful important people in my life all betrayed me. And if I told that story to anybody, they say, Oh my gosh, isn’t that awful? But you know, when you take that and say, okay, but at the end of the day, that’s all I have is that story. But instead, if you do something, to move towards healing and do something good with it, that’s a better story.

Dr. Manon  20:23

Yeah, for sure. It makes total sense. And, and have you found what really motivates people to move away from that part? Like, is it a conscious thing? They realize that this is not serving them? Is it new friends, new opportunities that allow…what has been the driver that shifts, especially from three to four, like letting go as you say, one I’m moving? What have you found to be true?

Dr. Debi Silber  20:56

Yes, it’s such a great question. It’s really a combination of a few things.  It could be the pain is so great, where you are, that it overrides the fear of the unknown. And because really, that’s it that here we are stuck in that familiar doesn’t mean it’s good, it just means it’s familiar. But when that gets to a point, that it’s so painful, and you recognize how it’s holding you back in just about every aspect of life, often, that’s it. And then it’s a very conscious decision, when we immerse ourselves in something forward-moving, positive healing, that’s when we can start to move. You know, there were three groups in the study who did not heal. And it was so, so clear, and I went into the study, you know, you’re not supposed to assume anything, I was new at this, I was doing my best. But I assumed that the people who were the hardest hit would grow the least because they had so much more to overcome.  I was dead wrong, that had nothing to do with it, what we found was, it really was the willingness. The willingness to say whatever it takes, I’m moving through this, because the three groups who didn’t heal the first they were just unwilling to accept their betrayal, they just wouldn’t, they weren’t having it. And so they stayed. The second was the group who were numbing, avoiding distracted, they were in that stage three, and they would run to the doctor, let’s say, who put them on a mood stabilizer or anti-anxiety meds, or they would drink or they would numb out in front of the TV and I get it, it would make the day a bit easier to move through. But it completely haunted their feelings. And then the third group, I found this so interesting. This was the group where the betrayer had no or very little consequences. And whether this was of financial fear, not wanting to break up a family very often it was religious fear. They stayed. And this is a romantic betrayal. And not only did they not heal, by far, this group was the most physically sick.

Dr. Manon  23:07

 It’s interesting, it’s not my subject, particularly, but I’ve certainly seen 1000s of patients. And I would say that the most chronic diseases manifest from the deepest stuckness you know, where there’s actually a persistent fear, whether it’s a belief or real, like sometimes it’s really hard for certain, especially certain women in certain circumstances to really leave the situation they’re in. There is not the support.

Dr. Debi Silber  23:48

And even if there is, it’s not the right type of support. And I found consistently, if it’s not the right type of support, it can do more harm than good. Because now here, this person has been betrayed. And so often they get blamed for it, they get criticized for taking it too seriously or too hard, or, you know, and it’s coming from it could be well, meaning, or not. But it’s not doing any good. Or someone may find a support group, where it’s like the “ain’t it awful club”, you’re feeling better and you don’t belong. So we actually took all of that I said, Well, what do people typically do when they’ve been betrayed, they’ll go to a therapist or counselor, which could be wonderful, but that’s still not addressing it on every level. Or they’ll numb, avoid, distract, or they’ll seek support, but it may not be the right group. So in the PBT post betrayal transformation community, it’s like everything they said, approved, we need the 13,000 responses, what they said they wanted, and what I found wasn’t really helping, and we just put that all together in our community.

Dr. Manon  24:55

 Hmm, great. So it’s a really supportive community in that sense, like supportive for growth?

Dr. Debi Silber  25:04

Oh, absolutely to lift and inspire from people who get it. So they understand. So everybody knows what everybody’s experiencing, but it’s to lift and inspire. And we have certified coaches and practitioners and they’re teaching live daily classes, and they’ve been through it, but they feel so good about their transformation. That’s what happens. You can’t help but want to share it.

Dr. Manon  25:27

So you actually have them training in this methodology that you’ve discovered. That’s, great to know, that’s a resource that everyone should know about. Because I think betrayal is, it’s so common in so many cases, and, whether it’s incest survivors, or whether they know it as a child or some they don’t know it because it’s so young, they only find out later as adults what they’ve experienced and then it’s very hard to deal with that level of betrayal, because sometimes the parent or the uncle or whatever, is no longer there. Not that necessarily talking to them makes a difference, it can, in some cases and others, that’s really not the way to go.

Dr. Manon  26:20

There’s a lot of unanswered questions. I would say that the body has another way of expressing the problem, you may not know, it’s betrayal, but your body will do chronic fatigue, it’ll start having autoimmune problems, and it’s not that it’s the cause, but it’s the trigger that puts the fire for the forest to burn. It’s the thing that puts you over the edge.

Dr. Debi Silber  26:51

And that’s why betrayal is it hurts so much, because, you know, it is such an assault, to it’s that breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule, and the way I look at it, it’s the deeper the relationship, the more we trust and depend on someone, the deeper the betrayal. So like, in the case you just mentioned, here, a child is completely dependent on that family member or whatever, and when they do something awful, that’s going to have a different impact. And let’s say your best friend telling your secrets, it’s still a betrayal, but it won’t hit you the same level, but that child who’s experienced that, then they…now they’re they’re moving through into their next relationships, feeling damaged, feeling not enough, feeling not good, like not important and all these things. And how could they move into a healthy relationship? what they find is something that’s just familiar. So they’re like, Okay, I know this, I know how this goes.

Dr. Manon  27:58

That’s the basis of addiction. You know, it is truly a chemical, neurological response, right of the safest feels comfortable. Now, we’re just going to continue with this. Like, is that and that’s your phase two, right? I think.

Dr. Debi Silber  28:16

The shock, that’s the scary phase three, that’s the 3d addictions. The addiction stage. Addictions come in, and that’s why our coaches, our certified coaches, in our community, they work outside of our community as well. They each come in with their specialty because there are so many things that need to be addressed. So yes,  They’re certified in the five stages, but we have some that are just mentioning because you mentioned addiction, some that specialize in addiction, some that specialize in reconciliation, some in narcissism, some you know, because we have to really unpack so much.

Dr. Manon  28:54

Out of curiosity, that’s just because it’s my specialty, but do you have anyone who does work with the body physically?

Dr. Debi Silber  29:03

you know, we have the way we do it at this but we have somebody who is her specialty is chronic pain. But we don’t have it at this point and we have it on a first come first serve basis, our community is only open for six months. So when someone comes into the community, they can claim a specialty, and then it’s just simply off the table for other people. So we don’t have a specific buddy worker type of person, but it’s so needed because it gets stuck.

Dr. Manon  29:32

It literally gets stuck in the tissues. I’ve been doing Bowen therapy for now 30 years as a naturopathic doctor and I’ve seen so much of these emotions stuck in the body. And they may come in with pain. They may come in with conditions and diseases, but it’s the moment you give a different experience to the body. It’s like there’s something that changes and it feels like oh, my body is safe. It’s like this is my actual home. Because I have found a lot of people have this almost disembodied experience. And when you say like, I did not realize the first one, they’re busy, and they’re more in their mental, it doesn’t surprise me. Because most of our society is very disembodied.

Dr. Manon  30:32

So it’s interesting because I do find that through that, without having to explain everything, because not everyone processes that way. Sometimes it’s just, oh, my body is safe. And that turns on, or off this super sympathetic drive. When they start to go into healing, it also allows the healing to accelerate and the trust…I just feel like it’s tangibly physical. For me, but of course, I’m completely biased from that perspective.

Dr. Debi Silber  31:10

But you’re so right. And it’s true. It’s like people breathe, take that deep breath for the first time. And they don’t know what that feels like. And when they do……. and I see this every day within our community, they’re creating a new identity. And this new version of them, you take the parts that you like, and you leave behind the parts that don’t serve, but the parts of them that they’re taking with them have this new curiosity and confidence and willingness and an ability to breathe and stand a little stronger. And they do they physically at least stand differently. They move differently. But that’s because they’re addressing things on all levels.

Dr. Manon  31:50

Exactly. Exactly. And we know that impact your physiology changes when your posture changes, we are so perfectly made and everything’s there, but we just have, you know

Dr. Manon  32:02

I think very much the way healing………. it’s not even been healing. It’s been disease management. Yes, it’s separated everything, whereas we are so well made that if we’re not stuck in one of the domains, whether it’s regurgitating the same thought and we have, we actually come in through another door. So much opens. And another thing that I love that you said……… just because I’m I love to see possibility and healing. And that’s, in my experience, is it’s not the people with the biggest traumas, or the biggest betrayals that take the longest to heal, which is exactly the same in whether it’s physical trauma or not. It’s not dependent on how bad it is. Which is, you know, it’d be nice to hear from the other perspective that you found that to be true, you know, so there’s something for everybody.

Dr. Debi Silber  33:02

What’s the one word that makes all the difference? It’s willingness. It’s a willingness to move through it and face those demons and slay those dragons. But when they do, they’re such a strength that emerges. And if you don’t do it, it just follows you around like a shadow. So, yes, it’s painful. Of course, it is,  it’s heartbreaking. And anybody who goes through our community, that’s what they experienced, but they don’t have to do it alone. And that was one of the biggest reasons why we included the support everybody in my study, you know, I said, what would have helped you ……….support the right kind of support,? So, I know, in my experience, that was the case in the first year after my betrayal, I would just work… deal with the kids….. crash …work kids crash, that was it and it was awful. I would have loved to have somebody really supportive to help me through it. But what we learned too, is, you know, healing is always an option. Whether you heal yourself and move on, which is what I did with my family, it simply wasn’t an option to rebuild with them. Or if the situation lends itself if you’re willing, if you want to, as two completely transformed people, you rebuild something entirely new with that person who hurt you. And that’s what I do with my husband. We married each other again, not long ago. We teach in the community when it’s safe and in your best interest to just move on and when it’s safe in your best interest to consider the possibility and every everyone’s situation is different,  we teach somebody how to know when it’s okay.

Dr. Manon  35:00

Great well, I was gonna say any last words, but that has given me chills.

Dr. Debi Silber  35:06

Well, I do have one last thing, and I hope this would serve. And for everybody who’s hearing this, if you have to say this 100 million times, it’s worth it. Even though it happened to you. It’s not about you. And that’s a hard one to believe in the beginning, but it’s true.

Dr. Manon  35:29

Yeah. You could even say it’s for you.

Dr. Debi Silber  35:34

When you get through it! I wouldn’t say that to someone who is fresh in it, but kind of coming out the other side that it’s okay.

Dr. Manon  35:42

My own many diseases, actually, and many betrayals, which I’m sure they’re all interlinked at one point or another, it is possible to love life and trust again. So anyway, I really appreciate you sharing all this and the name of your book, we’ll put everything underneath but what is your new book,

Dr. Debi Silber  36:04

 “Trust Again” Overcoming betrayal and regaining health, confidence, and happiness

Dr. Manon  36:10

Okay, and that obviously, you can get it on Amazon.

Dr. Manon  36:14

Perfect. Okay. Well, thank you so much for sharing your time.

Dr. Debi Silber  36:18

 Thank you for allowing me to share.

Thank you for joining us. For more information, go to DrManonBolliger.com.