a physical, emotional and mental level. And I never questioned it. I just loved having Bowen treatments. And so whenever even if I was living in the area or moved away from the area, anytime I was visiting, I always made an appointment with her just because there was something very powerful going on. And then one day when I had a treatment with her, I said to her how, how does this work? Like it’s really amazing. And I’d never had this conversation with her previously. I’ve probably thought it, but I’d never verbalized it. And she then in that moment, said that she could tell there was something within me from the very first time she said, do you remember that first visit? And I didn’t tell her that I walked away going, I didn’t get it? And I said yes, I do. She said I could tell there’s something within you and you know, I would encourage you if that’s something you want to do, you will be brilliant at and so it was a high recommendation, given my opinion of her and how my body responded to her the treatment. So that’s how I sort of started. But then that also awoke in my memory. When I was a teenager, my father had visited a Bowen therapist up in Townsville in North Queensland. And for some reason, that then came back to me, and I’d never forgotten that it wasn’t at the time when I was a teenager thinking, one must remember, you know, Bowen therapy, I didn’t even know what it was or why it was even named that because there’s a town in Queensland called Bowen. So, I didn’t know it was about Tom Bowen, that it was named after him that it was an Australian technique, none of that. So, it’s interesting how, without connected knowledge, how that part sort of eventuated

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*) 05:46

Well, I’m so glad you shared that. Because let me share mine. I don’t normally do this. But it’s so funny because it’s so similar. So, I was actually taken to somebody that could fix me, because I had scoliosis. And I had quite a lot of discomfort for about eight years. Went to Chiro about three times a week. And, so they said, just try, try this guy. And so, I went in, it was a basement. It was fine. I mean, it was all normal. Laid down. He did some weird stuff, didn’t know what it was called, didn’t ask. And then he said, Okay, you’re gonna need one more, you know, and I was quite young, so I wasn’t really deeply bodily connected. The sense of like, am I even noticing anything? I just Okay, I just, maybe this is the Canadian phenomenon. I just followed orders. Just come back. So, I came back. And I didn’t give it any thought. And then it’s like, well, my spine was straight. I had no more pain, everything was fine. And I left because this was in Toronto. I went to come back to go to law school. So totally other direction had no, didn’t even ask what it was crazily disconnected, but I was fixed from it. And it was it was funny. It’s only much later, when I finished my naturopathic practice. So, I was now a naturopathic physician. And I went to a class, and I read the pamphlet. I thought it said, physical homeopathy. And I went, oh, well, I’d like to know this because I don’t really like chiropractors. I don’t like what we call it. Naturopathic manipulation. I don’t really like massage. It’s too much work and too invasive. And, you know, and I want something that’s lighter, and it’s homeopathy, physical homeopathy. So, there was no such pamphlet. I totally made it up in my mind. I read it. I showed up. And Ozzie and Elaine, where teaching. Two hours into the talk. You know, he uses the word of physical homeopathy. And I’m like, oh, wow, I’m in the right place, you know, because I was like, where am I? I’m in the wrong seminar. Why did I you know, whatever. And the feel, and the touch and the sequences, I was like, wow, this is the thing I had way back, like years before 15 years before. So, the dots got connected all by so called accidents in which there are you know, now I know there are no accidents and

 

Helen Dunne  08:53

it’s an organic life paths really, you know, we go where we’re sort of meant to go without questioning at all, necessarily designing it or controlling it.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*) 09:02

Exactly. Yeah. So, I had never heard of an accidental Bowen therapist either. So, it was your…

 

Helen Dunne  09:10

Good title.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*) 09:13

So, what he told me your experience of Bowen therapy what it can do, of course, no names no nothing because we were under confidentiality. But what have you seen what surprised you the most that you’ve seen it?

 

Helen Dunne  09:31

Well, I’ll just sort of pick up the thread from being told you know, if you do it, this is your thing. I made the phone call that day or the next day to the teacher that trained the Bowen therapist I’d see and signed up, so I had a couple of months to wait. And I was getting the anatomy and physiology books out and reading them you know, waiting for the course to start and When I finished the course because you have to do you know, so many 100 hours of working on people as you do the course. And then starting and it’s been a slow I don’t, I’m not a full time Bowen therapist yet. So, I work part time because I started in Sydney, I started trying practice in Sydney, and then I moved from New South Wales, from Sydney, New South Wales to Toowoomba, in Queensland. So, this is considered a regional city. And it’s much harder, it’s going to take a long time, but I have had clients here, and one at the end of every treatment, I’m always amazed. I’m always learning. And I always feel confident in my ability to deliver Bowen moves. And why I worded that way is that there’s more, so I deliver the moves. But what goes on doesn’t come from me, it’s very much about the client, and at their level, so we were talking about personalities before and, you know, context and information and people. One thing I keenly observe is the personality of that person, whether I’ve met them before or not. And you know whether it’s someone I know that I do a treatment on, I believe that their personality will determine their rate of receiving the moves, and how quickly or slowly their condition or ailment is resolved. So slowly, doesn’t necessarily mean a reluctance, it might just mean that’s the pace that their body works at. So, you know, I saw what are we today, Friday. So, on Tuesday, I saw a client who hadn’t had Bowen before. And she’s in a stressful situation and looking after her husband who has dementia. So, she’s the only carer and sort of, you know, 24 hours, basically. And I’m still enthused, as I always say, part of my practice is to check in with the client, especially after a first treatment, to see how they slept and how they’re feeling because that becomes part of my notes, as a way, not only their responses within the treatment, but also after the treatment. And it thrills me when they say, you know, I’ve had the deepest sleep I’ve had in a long time, or I feel good. But I also like it when sometimes they struggle to find the right words, because if you get too many words that sound a bit cliched. I’m wondering if they’re telling me that because they think they should. But children are great to work on because my favorite answer from one of the children that I used to treat in Sydney was I feel different. And I thought what a perfect way to sum it up. You know, it is you do feel different. And I think why I like that. expected results, you know, if we take a Panadol, we supposedly have an operation to remove something that causes us a lot of pain, we tend to go through or use words that describe you know, how wonderful we feel. But I think feeling different also describes a fresh way of looking at our body. And the another thing I noted that clients say is they become aware of their body, which indicates how many of us walk around, not aware of it, and not aware of the ailments that we carry with us until they have eased, you know, or if a Bowen moves being done in the go or that that bits tender and when I have Bowen on myself will often describe that it’s like feeling like it’s going over a bruise, which means I’m holding tension there. So, I love how for me anyway, it changes even the way we describe or talk about health, which indicates how Bowen works.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*) 14:27

Yeah, I very much concur with your well the part that you emphasize which is one of my pet peeves as well, for the practitioners who don’t do it, is the the relationship you have with the client or the patient. It’s that they are engaged in the treatment. And it does increase their nociception that or their ability also to notice their own body, their connection to their body, their awareness to, to their pain, which changes. I think I see it like as a tool for a great awakening and awareness. And, and people engage in their health in a way that that is very different, you know, because as a naturopath, I can do Chinese medicine, acupuncture, manipulations, nutrition, you know, basic thing homeopathy things are great, they absolutely help. But I kind of coined the word Bowen first, because I would do bow in first.

 

Commercial Break  15:53

Hi, I’m Dr Manon Bolliger. J, and I wanted to take a moment to thank you for watching these podcasts. If you haven’t subscribed, please do. Also, feel free to leave comments and like it. This way more people get to find out about this work and about other choices for health. So, I think it’s really important that we all share this information, I have a free gift to you. It’s a seven sequence email that has tips for every day, and a little insight about how to live your life when it comes to health. And it’s very much built on how I managed to overcome stage four cancer and what it took. So, I, I would love you to have this. And thank you once again, for listening to these podcasts.

 

Helen Dunne  16:56

And, yeah, and then it’s like, see, see where things are at

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*) 17:01

exactly. Let the Arrabal let it do whatever. And yeah, and then see is there? You know, is there something that could help? And I don’t make sense because I’m a purist. I like to know what works. The limit of that and then it’s like, okay, maybe here we should be looking at, you know, or you are possibly deficient. Let’s test this, or let’s look at that. So those are all things that I’ll do afterwards. But we start with Bowen first.

 

Helen Dunne  17:33

Yeah, yeah.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*) 17:36

Yeah. Okay, so what, um, besides the engagement of the patient, which is I think, probably the, the biggest part in all healing is that, you know, when you look at modern medicine in general, you look, are you looking at, you know, a system based I’m not talking about the doctors, I’m talking about the system that we’re in, which is, yeah, symptom management. And we’re not, they’re not trained generally, to think that people can actually cure in fact, it’s illegal for us to use the word. But you know, we’re trying to like, Okay, well, we just have to manage symptoms, I find that when people reconnect to their bodies, the sky’s the limit, once they get the that feeling that something’s different, that, that their body is doing something, they’re so open to healing.

 

Helen Dunne  18:40

And that’s the tricky thing, If I could interject here, because if I said to a client, you’re responsible for your health, that may come that may present as a burden, especially when they’re already in a vulnerable situation. But essentially, it’s true. And it also is a result that is a result of our health system, in a way taking away our responsibility. But saying, you know, this sort of absolute cure all via painkillers, you know the pharmaceutical industry, or operations where parts of the body are removed. And that that’s deeply concerning. So, I get why people are in that position. We become childlike when were unwell and go fix me, fix me. So, I’m, as a practitioner learning the, I don’t want to say best wording, but appropriate wording. And so in, in my journey, I’m learning every time I’m with a client, and you can a bit like teaching just because you’ve got the class right one day, you do the same class and it’ll all unravel and in the next set depends on the students and the time of day and blah, blah, blah, and it’s the same with clients. So never promised anything. So, you’d say to a client because they want to come in and get their money’s worth, I want this fixed by the time I leave. And if you say, well, if they haven’t had Bowen before, this is roughly how Bowen works. And, you know, you mentioned the facia, and that, you know, it will operate for three to five days afterwards. And just let them know that the body communicates with them and me during the treatment, so you know, what I call responses in the body. And so that’s just saying, let’s see how we go. In other words, it’s beyond just, you know, me, I do my job. And then let’s see how the body goes. So, it’s almost separating the body from them, and then being the ego. Alright, so it gives everybody free space me, their ego and the body. Yeah. And then that way, if you word it that way, then they ease a little bit into it. But the people there are a few clients I’ve had who have not responded what I would word as well to bone in that they’ll go, I don’t get it, nothing happened. And I’ve always felt disappointed, I suppose. Because I feel like it might my reputation as a Bowen therapist, but also Bowen therapy itself, I feel responsible to, because I believe in it that I don’t want anyone to think ill of it. Despite the pun. So, I had a, you know, an 18 year old sort of big, burly kind of young man who came in who had a shoulder injury his mother sent him along. So, it was the first mistake, it wasn’t his decision to come. And it did make me laugh, but halfway through, he’s like, Helen, I said, yes. And he said, how much longer will this take? And I said, well, I did say you’ll be on the table for an hour. So, you know, just try and breathe and stay with it. And I checked in with him the next day. And he said he couldn’t tell any difference. So, he’s probably, you know, he had sort of a lot of muscle. And I just thought I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be keen to work on someone like that, again, they have to be taught me that people need to want to be there. And also, I don’t know if they necessarily have to understand Bowen. But he may have had subtle changes in his body that he wasn’t attuned to. Who knows? But I think it definitely is a personality driven thing. And I think this is where Bowen is holistic, that if you have the intent to be there, to support your body in health, then I think that’s where Bowen will work best.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*) 23:00

Yeah, it’s interesting. I’m gonna give you a contrary perspective, just from the conversations, right, but, but it’s interesting. Yeah, when I’m getting when I hear this is. So, I’ve attracted a lot of skeptics. But I’m a, I’m a skeptic. I’m a terrible skeptic. So. So I have the way it’s like, it’s like we connect. It’s going back to the first statement that you made about the connection where there’s, we’re all separate, but there’s some interconnection. And so, what I’ve noticed is that if I’m on the same playing field that they’re in, and they’re like, oh, my mom sent me because of this has happened to me, too, you know, yeah. My wife sent me. Yeah. And I’m like, oh, you’re one of those, you know, I was I start playing with it. And then I said, oh, well, so we, we can’t expect any results then, right? Like, I just play. And I think what happens is, they think I’m crazy, which is, which is good, because it takes away the ego. And, and so then it’s like, well, hey, let’s see. But one thing I teach my students to is not one treatment. I want them in for three treatments. So, when they commit, they commit for three treatments, right? And then it’s kind of like the first time they can walk out. I mean, I had this radio guy who he made such a stink, and he went on the radio and he told everyone that Bowen does not work and don’t go see that doctor em, you know, everywhere like everywhere, and I was like, oh my goodness gracious. Anyway, but I have the three treatments. Anyway, he called back saying, I don’t know what happened. But the next day, everything went away. So then, for about two years, he brought me like 1000s of patients, like he would always on his radio talk shows, say something like, and if you have sciatica go get Bowen. And if you have TMJ problems, go get Bowen. Right. But

 

Helen Dunne  25:28

it’s extraordinary that he goes on there to bag you, which must have been right after the treatment, and then to the next day, to have sort of such a change. Like, that’s very interesting story.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*) 25:41

Yeah, no, and, and then doesn’t necessarily have to be the next day. That was his story. Other people it can take, as I’m sure you’ve witnessed, you know, a week. And I say, well, you know, it’s like a language, we’re giving the body a language, and maybe by next week, it’ll learn how to speak. So, I kind of baby it up a little bit and explain to people you know, hey, you know, miracles happen. People get better all the time. We don’t … we’re not in charge of how and when we’re giving information. Right?

 

Helen Dunne  26:15

Can I ask then, because this is interesting, there are people because Bowen is subtle. Like there’s, it’s either doesn’t take too much to make us uncomfortable or to feel pain. So, when Bowen eases that, or removes it. People don’t necessarily, especially if it’s a few days after they’ve sort of eased and they just think, oh, I feel good today. And they may not make the connection, especially if they’re new to Bowen, to Bowen treatment. And I’ve had other Bowen practitioners talk about this, like one woman who was working on her daughter’s feet. And her daughter had her graduation, and she wanted to wear high heels. And she said, Mom, these shoes are so comfortable. In the mother saying no, it’s the Bowen therapy I did on your feet that allowed you to wear those shoes. And I thought that’s a really good idea that stayed with me, because I think people are so keen to go I’m fine now and off, they go back into their lifestyles. And they may not be aware or attribute, perhaps to Bowen. Or to think it’s a bit like if I keep having Bowen, I don’t have to change anything. Or if I take, keep taking the pill, I don’t have to change anything. So, there’s sort of a few things at play there. In acknowledging, and also, you can’t continue the same lifestyle. So, one of my favorite sayings, just to prolong this a bit further, that Carolyn mace coined is your biography becomes your biology. And I believe that, you know, and I think that’s a really good way of sort of summarizing so if we’re not going to change our biography, then it’s likely that our biology will continue to respond in the same way.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*)28:20

Yeah, but I do think we have a role to play, you know, and I do this with my students, I teach them it’s called the Listen Principles. So, it’s, like, by step by kind of go through on the context of the care. And one of the things is to at the beginning of the visit to number, literally, the pain, number the range of motion, get, like say, Yep, my pain is nine out of 10. And then I don’t follow them the next day I used to, because I was also like, curious, and I want to know, and, but then I started seeing like, 150 people a week. Gonna happen. And better, because here’s the thing, a week later, their bodies have settled into something. And then I would ask them, okay, so how are you doing now? And they’d say, oh, my hip is unchanged. I said, Well, what about your arm? Oh, right. That’s like, oh, it’s like a one. Oh, okay. And part of it and how we’re so beautifully made. When we’re better. We don’t think about it anymore.

 

Helen Dunne  29:35

That’s right. Yes.

 

Helen Dunne  29:36

We also don’t a tribute to what might have been the cause. And I’ve had people like, they come in for sciatica and they are searching for solutions for frozen shoulder, and they forget that Bowen helped them they come back like oh my god. I could have come here right away. You know instead of wasting a year trying to find another solution. And I think it’s because it this is so important that we keep being part of the conversation and remind people and let them self-reflect what’s going on and then be present, you know, by whether it’s newsletters or things that remind them that we exist. And because it’s so easy to forget, when you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re done.

 

Helen Dunne  30:31

I agree, and we do it and I walk around most of the time and aware of my body, although I try and be aware of my posture, and, you know, you know, sort of anything that sort of what like responses in the body, but that’s very new to us all. And without overwhelming people verbally about the things with the topic, we’re on now. Little bits of it. So, the first treatment will demonstrate to somebody their body, and they’ll go, oh, wow, I didn’t realize I was, you know, so tense there. So when, after their first treatment, they will be in a parasympathetic state. And realize there’s the comparison. Right. So how they walked in, they often don’t know how they physically feel, unless it’s a very sharp pain. So, and then Bowen will show them the opposite. And that’s a really good starting point without, you know, so that they’re feeling it in their body rather than me telling them.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*)31:36

Exactly, exactly.

 

Helen Dunne  31:38

So, I used to try and tell people sort of a lot, especially the context of their life, like, you know, a mother of five, who worked, looked, after all the children did all the housework did all the cooking, and she was exhausted, she had so many ailments, it was like, wow. And I didn’t think it was my duty, but I felt like it was a way of helping her. And I said, Can I suggest that you start asking the family members to help out, like, you know, give them things to do. And she couldn’t do that. She really couldn’t do that. And her, she, I have this sort of thing where I have, you know, try and get them in for three treatments, by discounting it a little bit. And so, she paid up for upfront for the three treatments, but she never came back for the third one, she had a very, very strong response to the first one, which, which made sense given what was going on in her body. So, there was, you know, it basically attuned her to what was going on in her body that she was blocking out and keeping herself busy whilst it was exhausting her. And then she had the second treatment. And she responded well to that, you know, it wasn’t as it didn’t have as strong an impact. But she never turned up for the third one. And I often wondered about that. And I think something in her realize she had to make a decision that she wasn’t prepared to make. You know, and I’m talking life, I’m talking life decision. And so, you know, this. And I thought that that that was the answer that I came up with that I think that, and I really respected that. I think if we’re not in a place where we need to make those life changes in order to support our own health, then we can only do that when we’re ready.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*)32:09

Yeah, but I think you bring up an excellent point, which is really that, you know, we can’t control when healing happens. But when a certain place and time and we’re ready, then, you know, the sky’s the limit. I think that’s the thing, you know, and nothing happens without a context. So, you’re right, you know, if there’s habits or things that really go against one’s own good, and they get in the way continually and you don’t want to make changes the body. It’s not it’s not super crazy. It’s not.

 

Helen Dunne  34:17

But it did teach me Manon not to perhaps say that in future whilst I thought that it was a helpful thing to say. It may have put pressure on her the decision has to be hers. And I was talking to I think it’s Derek Edmonds who design the diploma for Bowen therapy. And he said, you know, it’s not necessary to sort of go into that because I was wondering if I did it counseling course. So that could be sort of harmonious to Bowen therapy. And he said, I don’t know if that’s necessary. Just let Bowen do its thing. It works on all those levels. And I was kind of relieved to hear that because you know, every client, you see you don’t know their full story. And whilst you will have the best intentions in trying to support their context, it really has nothing to do with me. And if they’re in control of that, and if it becomes their idea at their pace, then that’s the best time. So, all I have to do is focus on Bowen. And like you, I’m a purist. So, I was more than happy to go. Right. I know, I know where I want to go. And so, I was going to stay away from the direction which I thought I would go.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*)35:34

Mm hmm. Interesting. Yeah, no. Anyway, I think our time is like, up.

 

Helen Dunne  35:41

Okay.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*)35:42

It was fascinating. And thank you so much for coming to speak. And maybe we’ll have another conversation in them in a year from now and see how things are going in your practice. And how it evolves. You know, I think we’re, with work like this, we’re constantly learning.

 

Helen Dunne  36:03

Yes, that’s the beauty of it. You I’ll never get bored with Bowen. And as I said, initially, it can’t every single client. You know, it’s always a different response in the body. I always see different things. I’m always amazed. I feel completely alive. And there’s no ego in there, which I love. It’s such a joyous time for me as a practitioner working on people. I feel like I’m doing something holistically good. So, it’s been a joy speaking to you. We’re both enthused about the subject equally and I love that, and I would, I would love and welcome another opportunity to speak because it’s lovely to have this connection.

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*)36:47

Likewise, thank you very much.

 

Helen Dunne  36:49

Thank you. Bye

 

Dr M (Manon Bolliger), ND (retired*)

Thank you for joining us. For more information, go to DrManonBolliger.com.