How to Recognize IBS Symptoms and Increase Gut Health with Jessica Mosiuk on The Healers Café with Manon Bolliger

that before.

 

Manon Bolliger 02:41

So, just out of curiosity, what were you told about IBS, from allopathic version of reality. But besides that, they can’t do anything about it. And it’s in your mind, and it’s a nervous thing, probably. But what did they say about it?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 03:01

Well, keep in mind, this was quite a long time ago when I when I tell you what I was told. So that we really didn’t have the gut knowledge that we have today. But at the time, I think his exact words were it’s a women’s issue and you’re all just afraid to poop. I think, I think he was trying to be funny, but at the same time, I you know, I was in such a vulnerable position because I was really upset that I was feeling so terrible. And I, you know, nothing was helping. So, when he told me that I just felt like I felt really small. And I like, I just felt really powerless when he said that I was kind of like, oh, that’s the most offensive way to phrase this.

 

Manon Bolliger 03:49

Yeah, and it’s interesting to is afraid to poop because at least you know, when I was trained, we were told this…we were told it changes from you know, loose stools to constipation, so he only had part of the picture which is kind of interesting. Yeah. So, in reading a little bit your, your bio, you were saying that the radical aspect in you. that the fighter that wanted to make a point where you know, at the time with your parents, which we all go through that you decided to become a vegetarian, right?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 04:32

Yes, so, the rebellious nature. Yeah, when the guy issues really started deciding not you know, I was in my teens and really exploring rebellion in many different ways. And the most rebellious thing I could do at the time in in my mind was to really push back against my meat and potatoes upbringing and become a vegetarian. And really actually not even just vegetarian, I actually first went vegan, all in. All in with the rebellion, and, you know, like, lectured my parents on you why you shouldn’t eat meat anymore. And that rebellious nature, I think, really, really also came out with that meeting with the doctor when he said, You know, it’s a women’s issue and you’re all just afraid to poop. I was like, Excuse me? How dare you. No, you’re not going to tell me that.

 

Manon Bolliger 05:31

And so, initially, you had changes, though, you saw that are impacted. And can you give us a little bit the journey because, you know, I’ve heard people with IBS that are eating exclusively meat, and they’re fantastic on it. And then there’s people who are, you know, vegan, or people who are without any grains, you know, or lectins. And they’re fantastic. And it seems like there’s a million ways, at least initially. So, what can you if somebody had this what can you share at this point in your knowledge, you know, to avoid all the potentially unnecessary steps?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 06:19

Yeah, well, I mean, and it does get a bit complicated when it comes to diet, because everyone is so unique. And what you do at one point in your IBS journey might not work several years later. So, to give you a little bit of story about that, when I first went rebellious and turned vegan, I immediately felt immensely better because I was just eating a lot more plants and not as much, you know, refined carbohydrates and as much red meat. And my gut really needed that at the time, it just needed more fiber. So, turning vegan at the time made a world of difference. And I felt so much better. And then I moved out on my own and experienced the wonderful joy of stressful adulthood and living on my own and paying bills and trying to have a career. And all that stress really did a number on my gut at the time. And I ended up having to take a couple of rounds of antibiotics for a urinary tract infection. And then all of a sudden, all of those gut symptoms that had went away, when I turned vegan, they came rushing right back, and were just far worse than they were to begin with. And so, my diet approach, you know, vegan diet, suddenly was making me feel ill. And that was really confusing to me, because what had worked for me in the past, suddenly was not working at all. And so, I had to learn about FODMAPs, which are a fermentable carbohydrate that some people aren’t able to digest when you have IBS, and had to go through another diet overhaul and really learn how to how IBS changed the way I digest food.

 

Manon Bolliger 08:14

So, tell us a little bit how did you identify that that was the issue and and what were the telltale signs so that people can go oh, maybe that’s what I have, you know?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 08:29

Yeah, so before right before I went vegan, I was just having inconsistent bowel movements. I was really constipated. So, once I went vegan, and eating all that fiber, everything cleared up, and I felt great. What changed is when I was eating those legumes and onion and garlic and broccoli and cauliflower. What happened when I ate those afterwards was that I just got this immense swelling, a swelling that I hadn’t never experienced before. I looked like I was nine months pregnant. And I know so many people with IBS are going mmmhhhmmm, yeah. Because that is a real telltale sign. When you have IBS and you eat something that you can’t digest that swelling is so extreme, and along with that came cramping and pain and alternating bowel movements. And so, when I realized that, immediately after eating, I started to get these worse symptoms. I started to have to think okay, you know, I write down what I’m eating what’s correlating with what symptoms and then I realized that these high FODMAP foods were really connected to my GI distress.

 

Manon Bolliger 09:44

And so, was it a question for you then to eliminate them? Or was there I guess originally you would, but have you found a way to reincorporate them or increase your ability to digest them, or what was the, the process? I mean, you know, in the end, you know, when people start, because you’re not the first person I’ve interviewed on diet, you know, and it seems like, you know, we always start with something. And then our micro flora changes, we change, there’s many elements in all of this. And then we sort of end up with something that is, I would say, less extreme of one thing. It’s almost as if the body is…not everyone, some people are still completely one way or another. But many people manage to kind of incorporate different things, at least that’s what I’ve seen. So, I’m curious, in your case, is that the case? Have you? Is that you are experiencing?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 10:53

Yeah, yeah. So, it was a real journey to go from, you know, not being able to tolerate so many different foods, to, you know, creating a more resilient gut, so I could go back to eating those foods again. And it wasn’t straightforward, but I did initially have to start with restriction. And so, I had to do a low FODMAP diet so that my symptoms would reduce. And then I really had to work on like recalibrating the gut microbiome. So, treating small intestinal bacterial overgrowth was a huge one for me. And if anyone’s listening, that doesn’t recognize that, although it’s such a buzzword now, which is great, people are learning about it. It’s when bacteria migrate to the small intestine, where they shouldn’t be in large amounts. And so, when you eat food, they start to ferment your food. And that’s why you get that extreme bloating. So, I really had to work on reducing the number of not-so-great bacteria in my small bowel, and then retraining my gut, my microbiome to tolerate those higher FODMAP foods again. So, you know, I didn’t just go from restriction to oh, I’m back at a normal diet, again, it’s all about it was all about retraining and like, think about, you know, if you suddenly go to the gym and start lifting weights, you’re not just going to walk in and pick up 200 pounds, it’s the same thing with your gut microbiome and food. Like I couldn’t just go from having to cut out, you know, all onion to just eating a whole roasted onion throughout the day that had to start with really small amounts over a long period of time, so that I could basically retrain my gut flora to tolerate those foods again.

 

Manon Bolliger 12:43

And when you say, which, you know, is my understanding to it’s an overgrowth of certain bacteria, just in case, there’s listeners who are still in the, you know, anti this, and let’s kill everything. It’s not necessarily that you should be taking, you know, antibacterials to get rid of the bacteria, right? You want it’s an inside job where you want to strengthen the good guys. So, the bad guys, as in the less useful for this process.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 13:19

Yeah, it’s not just about killing, which I think, you know, 10 years ago, that was the approach with SIBO is just go in and kill kill kill. It’s more about shifting the microbiome.

 

Manon Bolliger 13:32

And what did you find as foods that shifted, I mean, you had to eliminate so that you’re not provoking your system. And that was just but what did you find allowed the shift the best for SIBO for yourself?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 13:49

Really taking it slow. By nature, I’m not a very patient person. And I’m like, all in. All in or all out. So, I really, I really had to shift my perspective on you know, I’m not just gonna go back to my, you know, full vegetarian diet and eat all those beans and legumes I really had to slow down and be patient with the process. While also recognizing I had other areas to work on for gut health, outside of food. You know, I really had to work on reducing my stress, which is a huge one when it comes to SIBO and IBS. And I did not give that the attention it needed at the beginning.

 

Manon Bolliger 14:37

Yeah. Well, you made a comment. I’m just going to quote you that chronically ill people sometimes need permission to let go of their illness or untangle their identity from their illness before they can heal. And I thought, yeah, I totally…I definitely have seen that is part of the stress you’re talking about is the that identify, or you don’t but like, actual stuff.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 15:12

Actually both. Very much both, you know, I was stressed for very normal adult reasons, you know, trying to figure out living in this expensive city and you know, building a career and just normal stressors like that. But also, the stress that came along with having a chronic illness. So I really started to, I guess, identify with that statement, I can’t eat that, like, I can’t do that, you know, and really started to focus on the things that I couldn’t do, which as a young adult, caused a lot of, you know, internal stress, because I was telling myself, I couldn’t go out with friends, I couldn’t go socialize, I couldn’t do all the things that normal people my age are doing. And that created its own ball of stress. And so, I did start to identify with my illness at the time. It became part of my identity. And as I separated myself from that and started to flip the script in my mind that I was telling myself, I really saw a big shift in where things were going.

 

Manon Bolliger 16:24

So, when you say flip the script, it’s great. Like, in other words, I’m just reading into it, but saying things like, well, this food really helps my gut, this feels really good for me, as opposed to focusing on what I can’t have. You’re focusing on what you can have that is helping you and making things better.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 16:52

Yeah. Yeah, I really had to, you know, talk to myself basically, like that food is the friend fruit food wasn’t the enemy and starting to focus on, you know, the foods that I could eat, and really connecting with food in a way that I hadn’t before. Like before, when I was in that really strict elimination phase, it was like I was eating the same five foods over and over and over again. And that, you know, it creates kind of start to create this negative relationship with food when you’re laser focused. I can only eat these. So yeah, when I did start to say to myself, No, you know what, I can eat all these other foods. And these foods are really nourishing for my gut, rather than, Oh, no, I think this might hurt me when I eat it really made me it’s such a huge difference in you know, symptoms after I ate. And I see that with my clients too, is that, you know, the people I work with have been ill for so long, and almost like, the journey to finding the answer to feeling better, has become their own identity. And the same thing happened with me.

 

Commercial Break 18:02

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Manon Bolliger 18:45

Yeah, so what would you…knowing what you know, now and the way you help people now…what would be the keys like the sort of, I don’t know, first three steps to looking at this, or I think you actually have a seven-step thing, right? Program, but I mean, I’m not asking you to go through your entire program, but like, what are the things that you would get people to look at differently or do differently so that they’re not just, you know, not like a shot in the dark?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 19:22

Yeah, yeah. The, the type of person I tend to work with tends to be, you know, someone that has had IBS for you know, 10 plus years, like they’ve had it a really long time or most of the most of their life they’ve felt unwell with their gut. And so, they really, I think are stuck in that elimination phase. You know, they’ve cut out gluten, they’ve cut out dairy. They’ve dabbled with the low FODMAP diet, and they’re really stuck in a place and so what we really work on is zooming out. And remembering it’s not just about eliminating food, we need to work on what foods you are actually eating so that the microbiome isn’t being starved, we have to look at how they’re eating, because that is just as important as the foods that you do eat, like, how are you eating those foods? Are you sitting at your computer working, which some most people are guilty of? Or, scrolling your phone, you know, how are they eating? And what are they doing outside of food? Like, are they nourishing their nervous system? So, it’s really, you know, a multi-step process to getting them feeling better. It’s never just about eliminating food.

 

Manon Bolliger 20:39

And as far as foods that, to judge that a food is good, I mean, I know, there’s tests, you know, but at least when I was in practice there, you know, I would call them 50% accurate. Which is the problem like, you know, this day, it’s 50% accurate when you do it in two months, it’s also 50% accurate, you know, it’s like, it’s a bit of a joke, right?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 21:05

Yeah, shot in the dark really,

 

Manon Bolliger 21:07

It is. So how do you? How do you recommend people identify the foods that are actually good for their microbiome?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 21:21

Yeah, so it’s a that is a complicated process when you’re doing it on your own. Because intolerances and sensitivities can, you know, span, it’s a whole spectrum of intolerances and sensitivities. So really having to slow down and pay attention to what symptoms are popping up and when and knowing how your microbiome will affect what foods you react to. And yeah, that’s it’s hard to do on your own if you don’t understand why your IBS is has developed. So, you know, I see things like histamine intolerance, which means cutting out a certain group of foods, but I also see FODMAP intolerance, which is a different set of foods. So, knowing the different groups of foods that you can react to when you have IBS is really important. And going through a very strategic elimination, but also paying attention with your you know, your food and symptom journal.

 

Manon Bolliger 22:36

Yeah. So, by looking at food groups, reactive stuff, food groups can help. Yeah, I was thinking histamine. Yeah, that, I mean, there’s a lot of people now even more sensitized to that.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 22:51

Yeah, but at the same time, you don’t want to just go in and, you know, read all the ways one can react to food and just decide to cut out everything, because that doesn’t serve you either. You really, you know, there is a strategy behind it, because you want you want your elimination diet to be as least restrictive as possible.

 

Manon Bolliger 23:11

Right. Your elimination diet. So, in other words, okay, because I remember when way back, when we learned to elimination diets, it was. It was rice and lamb were the two things that people could tolerate, almost no matter what, and then we sort of started adding a food and waiting three, four days for a reaction. I mean, there’s, you know, I’m sure now it’s taught differently. But it’s a very long, painful, slow process, step by step that way, and it’s hard. You know, the only one people I ever remember when I was working in Nova Scotia at the beginning of my practice, it was like Camphill hospital, and there’s that poisoning in the hospital through the vent system. And people were on oxygen monitors because they…and they couldn’t, you know, tolerate anything that was like, they pretty well stayed on Bumble, otherwise, you’re going to have problems right. And at the time in my practice, I was trained as a naturopath. So, I looked at Elimination diets, they actually came from an elimination diet mindset. And I ended up using homeopathy to help balance their entire immune response as well as their nervous system response. And then I use Bowen therapy, which you’re, you know, talking about nurturing the nervous system. It’s huge. So only going with just the foods without taking that into consideration would be far more long and far more painful. And so, I don’t know, it sounds like you’re, though you have the knowledge and all that you’re still saying to people, there’s more to it, you have to look at other angles, or you’re not going to improve in the same way.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 25:27

Absolutely. And that’s what I really, you know, I really don’t think that trying to figure all of this out on your own is the best approach because you know, every, you’re doing things in like a shot in the dark way. And when I work with somebody, I don’t…it’s not like unnecessarily just, you know, here’s the low FODMAP diet, here’s everything you need to take out, it doesn’t work like that. Because, you know, people will these people have an ill will on time, they’ve already cut out a bunch of foods, they’re pretty, like, elimination diet fatigued, so I’m not going to just put them on this huge, complicated elimination diet where we cut out everything and slowly introduce. They don’t, they don’t have the patience for that anymore. They’re kind of like over it at that point. And there’s, that that’s not the only side of the picture, too. So, we would, you know, if I started working with somebody, we would work on some lifestyle things, you know, how are you eating, implementing better chewing habits, which is huge, getting to like implementing different ways to nourish the nervous system through sleep and stress reduction, and, you know, nature therapy. And then I look at what foods correlate with specific symptoms, it has to be very obvious for me in order to take something out. And that’s, I mean, that’s just the benefit of having been doing this so long, is I can see what foods are problematic for them. Whereas, you know, when you’re in it, you don’t, you can’t really zoom out enough to see that.

 

Manon Bolliger 27:03

What’s interesting, too, there’s just sort of an innate bias, right? Because you might want to get better, but you really don’t want to give up this food that you know, you’ve been told your whole life is healthy for you, right? I mean, I’ve had that with people sensitive to avocado, right? And it’s like, no, I’ve, you know, avocados are good fat, avocados. Great. And I don’t know if that is everything.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 27:36

And on the other side of that, too, you know, we see people who get it in their head that a food is really bad for them. And they avoid it completely, even though in small amounts, it will be okay. As long as you’re not crossing that threshold, which is, you know, a good, good example of the higher FODMAP foods, some of those high FODMAP foods you can have in smaller amounts, but people see that it’s on a list somewhere on the internet, and they’re like, oh, no, I can’t go near it. But and that’s just creating a bigger problem too.

 

Manon Bolliger 28:06

I mean, if you take a garlic onion, broccoli, I mean you’re taking away major cancer preventing right, you know, it’s you can’t just say none of all of that right, It is part of a bigger picture like you like you say, you know, and by the time you look at well actually let me ask you this. How…from when I’m trying to speak proper English that’s like two trains of thoughts. How has your relationship to food changed? Like if you could say it was like this? And now it’s like that like what’s the major thing for you that has changed in food?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 29:00

It has been a complete roller coaster is the first thing I’ll say about that. So, I grew up you know, not knowing anything about food, nothing about eating healthy, I just ate you know what was in our house and didn’t think twice and you know, if I remember starting like pee pee sorry, now it’s passed on to me now I can’t say it. Just starting gym class in high school and I’m like, okay, you know, I’m doing this physical activity now I’m gonna eat healthy and healthy to me at the time was eating six pieces of French toast before going to work out like I just knew nothing. So, I went from being like, you know, in total oblivion to starting to learn about, you know, natural health and holistic nutrition and getting actually too far into it where I suddenly started putting things on either a clean or a dirty category. You know, I was really, I was really putting holistic nutrition on a pedestal and obsessing about it. And that created a very complicated relationship with food, and I started to really get fearful around it. So having to kind of take a step back and learning to enjoy all foods in moderation was a huge process for me. And one that I haven’t really talked about much in my, you know, my marketing and my business. Because looking back on it, I still can’t quantify the steps of how it what it took to get there. But I did have to really work on not being fearful of food and getting to this place of moderation.

 

Manon Bolliger 30:55

Yeah, I was gonna say, what comes to me, when you’re saying all that, is, yeah, bu. And I feel like, whatever, glycol phosphates, you know, and all the chemicals and food, and, you know, and now this new insanity that somehow, you know, vegetables and animal produce needs to receive these injections, you know, like, we’re creating an insane culture where, you know, food isn’t food anymore. You know, it’s like, it’s…you know, so it because I agree, we can’t, we can’t be in fear with food. And yet, I think as a society, we’re coming to a point where we actually have to. That being true, and we now need to source out quality foods and, you know, quality establishments, restaurants that are really local, you know, that know where they get their stuff, you know. I don’t know how, where you live. But over here in BC, there’s quite a consciousness of that, of that reality.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 32:11

Yeah, and I do think that’s great, you know, for the if the, if it’s important to the individual, that’s a wonderful movement. And I think for other individuals, getting to…it can be just like the Clean Eating movement, where you get too hyper focused on it, and it becomes its own anxiety. So for me, that’s not in, you know, the top of my period of how I’m approaching nutrition, because I start to get too caught up in it. You know, that doesn’t mean I’m eating Doritos all day. But, you know, for me, getting, you know, produce from the grocery store, is has been my way of pulling back and kind of regaining my control over food in a very moderate way.

 

Manon Bolliger 33:10

As in cooking it yourself, knowing if that’s what you mean, as opposed to take out and that industry or?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 33:22

Actually just not having to, you know, I’m not getting really caught up in only getting only getting my produce from one stall at the farmers market, because it’s checked all the boxes of you know, organic and which is wonderful. I’m not, you know, not negating that. But just for me personally, it crosses the line into obsession, it becomes an obsession very easily. And it kind of reignites a bit of a fear. So, for you know, it’s not part of my nutrition, because it’s, it sets me back almost.

 

Manon Bolliger 33:59

Well, I think that’s really good to notice that, you know, because with IBS there is that component that is mental, emotional, and all of us, all diseases are mental, emotional and physical. So, if you know that it’s a trigger, then you’ve got to think, well, what’s more important to you to get triggered or to eat food and you know, feel fine. Maybe it’ll cause things, but you don’t care. On one level. You’re living in a at peace way, right?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 34:38

Yes, yes.

 

Manon Bolliger 34:39

Information can be overload.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 34:42

And it can and you know, you nailed it on the head like I had to make the choice. You know, what’s more important me being calm around my mealtime and not over analyzing when I’m eating, or, you know, sacrificing my mental health to get the best quality food. So, it was a choice, I had to make a choice.

 

Manon Bolliger 35:03

Yeah. Well, I think I love it that you see it as a choice, because that’s empowering it, anything you do from a position of choice is at peace in what you’re doing. Right? Well, you know, I think we live in a society is where so many people feel like they have no choice, you know, or they don’t take responsibility for their actions, you know. Oh, there was no other way. Or I had to do this, or there was no time to cook or there was…and I’m not saying these are not truths, you know, on some level, but when we really sit and make choices, I think we gain autonomy, you know, in our health, for sure. Yeah. Well, anyway, it was nice. Nice talking to you. Jessica. It’s funny that you made a point of being a rebel in your storytelling. What rebellious last words, would you like to share?

 

Jessica Mosiuk 36:09

Everything that you’re consuming, I would say online about gut health, I really want you to question because, you know, there’s a lot of opinions that I think are getting too hyper focused on things like the elimination diet, you know, if somebody’s telling you to take out night shades and lectins, like, question that. Why, you know, give me a solid reason why this is affecting my gut health and not just sort of getting what I did, and sort of taking all of it and cutting out everything. Question. Question. Question.

 

Manon Bolliger 36:49

Yeah, I love that…question. And also, you’re the experiment. Your body’s reaction is going to, in the end, determine what’s true for you, you know, we’re not always right

 

Jessica Mosiuk 37:01

Yeah. Yeah, there’s no one right way to go gut health and fixing your IBS. So, if something isn’t sitting right with you, voice that. Pay attention and keep in mind that it’s your own journey. You don’t need to be following what other people are doing.

 

Manon Bolliger 37:25

Thank you, Jessica.

 

Jessica Mosiuk 37:26

My pleasure.

 

ENDING: 41:33

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