Difference Between Medicine & Healing: The Healers Café with Dr. Manon & Dr Wayne Phimister

In this episode of The Healers Café, Dr. Manon chats with Dr Wayne Phimister

Dr Wayne Phimister (03:34):

And it’s funny because when I think about medical school or becoming a doctor, that was never part of my mindset. It was always just to help people. I want to help people, but I want to deal with the challenge. So if we move forward over 30 years now, and that’s exactly what I am, is I’m still wanting to help people.

Dr Wayne Phimister (03:57):

And it’s a huge challenge. And what I’ve realized is there’s a difference between medicine and healing, which is kind of strange because the origins of medicine was all about healing. Correct. But now we’re finding, as you know, the dominant theme of medicine is assessment, symptoms, symptoms, signs, diagnoses, investigations and treatments. And you know, the majority is medications or surgeries. And that’s what we’re trained in.

Dr Wayne Phimister (12:51):

Well, it’s, I think in all honesty functioning as a family doctor because of the time constraints and you’re there to collect symptoms and you know, all the symptoms or as many symptoms as you can and our job is to go and find those symptoms. But I think in reality it’s more what is the patient saying And then you get onto that mindset of reductionist model of, you know, trying to figure out what they’re talking about or what the problem is and you confirm it with the diagnosis. So confirm it with the examination focal examination. Right. And then go down the path of investigations and diagnosis. But we’re talking about medicine here. We’re talking about traditional medicine where it’s a symptom based world and well,

Dr Wayne Phimister (31:07):

We do MRI scans and there’s one doctor says, look, you cannot get an MRI scan standing in Canada and we think about it when you stand you get your whole axial skeleton with gravity pulling and it’s a very different thing to lying down in a bed with gravity spread out.

Dr Wayne Phimister (31:57):

So this dynamic body that we have that always moves and never stay still really, you know, it’s a different picture that you’re seeing on a different position. Now I had to, well there is one MRI scan in Kamloops, in BC here and up in Dr Brown’s office who is a neurosurgeon and he does MRI scans sitting down.

About Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND:

Dr. Manon is a Naturopathic Doctor, the Founder of Bowen College, an International Speaker with an upcoming TEDx talk in May 2020, and the author of the Amazon best-selling book “What Patient’s Don’t Say if Doctors Don’t Ask.” Watch for her next book, due out in 2020.

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About Dr Wayne Phimister

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Website:  www.waynephimister.com 

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TRANSCRIPT

 

Welcome to The Healers Cafe conversations of

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (00:26):

So welcome to the healers cafe. And today I have with me Dr Wayne muster and let me tell you a little bit about him and then we’ll take it from there. So he’s a family physician and clinical assistant professor at UBC, clinical instructor at Stanford university in the USA and author and speaker who is dedicated to finding solutions for people suffering in chronic pain. Now he is trained as a MD and family physician in his country, Scotland in 2000 and then moved to BC in 2003 after work in New Zealand. And is also certified in medical acupuncture, intramuscular stimulation, which started down an entire journey, which I think I’m just going to ask you to speak about all that. So welcome.

Dr Wayne Phimister (01:29):

Well thank you. It’s been a privilege to be invited on the healers cafe. I love the name.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (01:35):

Well actually before you tell us all the things you’ve learned what is that? made you decide one day or at one moment in time that you wanted to become a doctor or a healer or what was that? When did that start? How did you know?

Dr Wayne Phimister (02:01):

i was age 17 at high school when I had to decide what I was going to do and go off to university to study and I have a tendency towards the sciences and I was an average student, but I really enjoyed studying. And then i decided that I wanted to help people and I wanted a challenge. And where did that came from? Well, who knows, but it just came from somewhere and was deep within me. And as I reflected on this question before, I did have an experience age five where I had a near drowning experience that was at a swimming pool with friends. My parents were there, on holiday in the North of England and we all went down the slide into the water and it was lots of waves and none of us could swim, all of a sudden I think I went into a shock response because my friends were rescued by my dad who pulled them from under the water.

Dr Wayne Phimister (03:04):

But the lifeguard dived in and saved me. So there was no ill health that I’m aware of that I was told. But you know, after that I learned to swim and became very proficient swimmer on a national level score and in a very short period of time. But maybe there was something in there that, you know, made me face my demise as it were or potential death and shocked me into a path of helping people. And that’s certainly why I did medicine. And it’s funny because when I think about medical school or becoming a doctor, that was never part of my mindset. It was always just to help people. I want to help people, but I want to deal with the challenge. So if we move forward over 30 years now, and that’s exactly what I am, is I’m still wanting to help people.

Dr Wayne Phimister (03:57):

And it’s a huge challenge. And what I’ve realized is there’s a difference between medicine and healing, which is kind of strange because the origins of medicine was all about healing. Correct. But now we’re finding, as you know, the dominant theme of medicine is assessment, symptoms, symptoms, signs, diagnoses, investigations and treatments. And you know, the majority is medications or surgeries. And that’s what we’re trained in. And there’s other things as well, like therapy, counseling injections, but the word healing and the word stress and the word trauma is not in the curriculum. And that’s maybe changing a little bit, I would say based on my students, but the, what I was trained in, that’s a different language. So it’s taken me a long time to realize that. And here we are at the healer cafe.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (05:05):

So you wanted to help and at that point the doctor was, I mean, you could have become a lifesaver, but that’s not challenging enough. So, why medicine? Do you have any clue why that was? For you?

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (05:27):

I think for me it was just, it was a natural progression from the sciences at high school. And I enjoyed them and i was quite good at them. And I knew at the end of the day I would be helping people because that’s what doctors do. That’s, you know, at the age 18 i went to Aberdeen university and in Scotland that’s when you start university for medicine. And yeah. So that just took me through a journey of a little bit of biochemistry. I did a intercalated medical degree in middle and taught me, I didn’t want to do research or pure research. So I ended up, interestingly being a family doctor because my intention was to be a pediatrician and it was the last four weeks of six years. It’s crazy. Looking back the last four weeks, it sat in a family doctor’s office and I thought, Oh my goodness, this is me.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (06:20):

And you know, I came from a small town in the Northeast of Scotland and, and I’m just working class background and just sitting in the office talking to people about everyday issues, symptoms, life. I just connected with it more than I did in hospital medicine and the research world that I trained in And I just thought, this is what I need to do. So off I went and trained in family medicine and I loved it. You know, I did it. I trained for 10 years total and then 20 years now as a qualified GP. And October three years ago I did full time family practice and in the small town of Agassi in BC and do full service practice, which was cradle to grave and it was delivering babies. It was in a hostile war crimes hospice care, nursing home care. I was medical director for two nursing homes in Agassi for a year. So I just really enjoy the breadth of experience now from the simple consultation of walk in clinic, which you know, is not my forte, but it’s actually more challenging when you’re a very comprehensive, to do it in an efficient manner. So I kinda used every situation I find myself in to just help people and connect with people first and foremost and listen and do my best in that moment for them in that journey of their path, disease and healing.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (07:47):

And so how have you found like there’s… I have a lot of doctors who have come to see me as patients and they’re saying, Oh, you’re so lucky to be a naturopathic physician. because you can do your own hours, you can actually listen to a person’s complete story, there’s an emphasis in the connection if you want it right now we’re not all the same breed. We’re not all the same, you know, in that sense everyone’s different. But we have that choice. How was it for you? because I’ve heard different stories, you know, of not having enough time or it’s a question of choice. was there a difference for you in Scotland than here? can you explain a little bit what your experience with the potentially of limitations of the system if you see it that way. I don’t know if you do.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (08:43):

I think it’s walking a fine line because within the medical model in Scotland is very different with NHS and in the UK that with NHS where you get per capita based funding. So you get X number of patients and you look after them. And whereas in North America, as we know in the medical system, it’s fee for service. So the more numbers you see, the more money you make. Now that’s not entirely true, but that was the case when I came here for 10 years. And now it’s changed to rewarding family physicians who do spend time with patients like ….. and chronic disease management, which is fees for providing a service for the entire year depending on the disease or diseases. So the renumeration is more fair now and the flip of that was we’re not penalized for spending time with patients. So, you know, I think for me at the end of the day

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (09:44):

It wasn’t about how much money I can make. It was always about just helping my patients, you know, this patient and this moment. And if I run behind, I run behind. And that’s maybe not the best for time management and other people have time schedules. But that was, probably one of the most challenging things I found because I was so interested in helping them. And I had to realize I can’t do everything, especially in one visit. And you know, the great thing about being a family doctor is you can use time and use multiple visits and more of a connect with the patient and advise and they use follow up visits to follow up and then you get that, you know, most patients only remember 10% 15 20% of what we say anyway. So by saying less and maybe listening more and advising less than if we do it and then we get that follow up success with outcomes or followup success with advice, then people do move forward. So it was interesting. You know, it’s interesting. It’s one of those things you deal with as a family doctor

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (11:05):

And I didn’t realize Scotland was the same system as the UK, so yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah, it must’ve been a shock, but I’m glad then that’s changing now here. So how long has it been different?

Dr Wayne Phimister (11:20):

It was about 10 years ago, just from my memory approximately 10 12 years ago maybe. I think it started to change. Yeah.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (11:31):

For the family doctor then, Interesting I know that in my family my mother, and it’s like one symptom, you know, you can’t talk about several things she’s not brought up like that, you know?

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (11:54):

Having come from Europe and I guess, you know, it’s like I’m a whole person. Why do they only want to know that I had this one issue So she goes, you know religiously and follows everything. But I can hear her frustration. It’s like, you know, so how, how has your experience with that ,or have patients said this to you?how do you deal with that? because I mean, you do have some limited time. And I appreciate the idea that you give small chunks, which are absorbable and followable. So that’s a really interesting way of looking at the problem. But how do you get all the information you need to to not just superficially treat, but to really get to what’s going on? Like when you make the distinction about healing, right?

Dr Wayne Phimister (12:51):

Well, it’s, I think in all honesty functioning as a family doctor because of the time constraints and you’re there to collect symptoms and you know, all the symptoms or as many symptoms as you can and our job is to go and find those symptoms. But I think in reality it’s more what is the patient saying And then you get onto that mindset of reductionist model of, you know, trying to figure out what they’re talking about or what the problem is and you confirm it with the diagnosis. So confirm it with the examination focal examination. Right. And then go down the path of investigations and diagnosis. But we’re talking about medicine here. We’re talking about traditional medicine where it’s a symptom based world and well,

Speaker 4 (13:46):

Okay,

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (13:47):

We,ve been talking about before today as well as at the beginning is, well, what is the difference between healing and medicine?. And to, to dive into the thoughts of the patients. That’s just the symptoms, but what are the thoughts of the patients? What are the emotions of the patient and where did it begin? That fear of their spiders, where, where does it begin? A fear of flying.

Speaker 4 (14:15):

Okay.

Dr Wayne Phimister (14:17):

And people never think about these things and if you ask them, they’re going to say, I don’t know

Dr Wayne Phimister (14:22):

Most of the time because it’s subconscious. Yeah. Right. And it’s only been the last four years where I’ve taken an interest in understanding that mind, body connection and the work of John Sarno has really pioneered for the medics. 50 thousand cases of healing chronic pain going from the gut to the mental emotional perspective. And looking at that is the foundation for the pain and not the CT scan, MRI or Xray as the foundation for the cause of the pain. So that mental, emotional, physical areas of life is missed in the busyness of the medical world. And to be fair to us all medics or medical doctors is the principles of discartes you know, back in the 1600 who stated, you know, let’s let’s study medicine with a separates type approach where dualistic approach where we divide the body and the mind.

Dr Wayne Phimister (15:37):

And that started the downward spiral of missing the boat regarding my body connection and healer. Yeah. And I think just that really helped me come into the fullness of optimizing my role as a medical doctor and as a healer because I see it myself, it’s the same thing. And it just allowed me to, to embody that and within the context of pain because that was my personal special interest as a family doctor and now, you know, just full time for the last three years, just focusing exclusively on that and taking more time. And ask him what’s more questions, especially with my intake form about their childhood, about their abuse, about the traumas, about their, mood of birthing, you know, C-sections, right. And use of antibiotics and you know, breastfeeding vesture bottle feeding and just diving into the world of the microbiome and what was the precursors for the presentation of chronic pain.

Dr Wayne Phimister (16:46):

So, and that’s really only in the last year, and three months that I’ve embodied that and taken up on myself and, you know, changed my, provide them by changing my diet. And by reading around the subject of the rule of health from the gut, which Hippocrates talked about two and a half thousand years ago. And you know, get me out today with a new branch of medicine evolving with the microbiome and genetic coding of that. And there’s, you know, leaders in the field, medical field discussing this, talking about this books, podcasts, et cetera. I hope in the next 10, 20 years this becomes a normal, right, exactly. It’s become the normal conversation. Like let’s get back to basics. Everybody food. Yeah. I know. I was actually surprised you know, that, that even nutrition, you know, most universities is like 10, 15 hours of study.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (17:50):

we’re also completely separate from the way our whole organism works. Right. We’re still, you know, we have specialists for every body part, but not the whole, you know, so it’s, it’s interesting. So do you feel that this is definitely like a trend towards more, you know, integrative, more holistic approaches to the whole being that’s, that’s happening?

Dr Wayne Phimister (18:28):

I don’t think it’s happening yet. I think that the students coming out are asking questions to their professors and educators about the role of diet and cardiology, for example. Right. You know, so I think we’re a long way from, from seeing it as a, as a reality. I don’t know what it’s going to take. I know it’s going to take a long time. 20 years.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (19:05):

Well, there’s so many pieces to it because it’s, it’s become kind of like, like a machine, you know, it’s like there’s the practitioner, the doctor doing the best they can with all the, you know, I mean everyone studies things that either they need to for themselves, for pain, for health, for gut health, whatever it is. Right? So they, everyone does their homework if it involves them or potentially a patient. And then it’s like you’re still stuck with it. A diagnostic system, you know, that has a prognosis that says that certain things can’t be changed or cured, you know, and there’s these many drugs to take along the path. And that’s a very big machine. the pharmaceutical complex machine is, you know, at least from what I’m hearing from other doctors is like, yeah, some of them I’ve said, I feel like I’m a pill pusher and I’m like, my goodness.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (20:09):

So, yeah. I don’t know. Like, I think it’s, it must be hard because it’s, you know, you can come from another place in your heart or a desire, but the, the system is, it’s quite a strong system, you know, because if you’re not in it, you can really, you can witness it as well. You know, acting quite differently even anyway, let’s not talk about what’s happening right now, but it’s interesting. You know how yeah, yeah. And, and let’s talk about pain a little bit because you know, that is your specialty and I’d love you to share what you’ve

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (20:48):

Seen then and what, what impacts pain, like more, give us a little bit more what opened you to realize that you know, that there’s more to it?

Dr Wayne Phimister (21:01):

Well, coming from being, you know,,,,a patient, funnily enough did call me a pill pusher. Once it shocked me, it was like, ah, I don’t believe you said that about me, but she was right. You know, because we’re trained and that’s what we do. And as you say, you know, there’s a role for this, but there’s also a bigger piece of the pie we’d be looking at. And I guess curiosity was one of the main factors and openness. And you know, I did train in medical acupuncture within a month. So becoming a family doctor. And that was because I, I had a friend who was an acupuncturist who helped me get through my initial 10 weeks of work because as a doctors I was working every day and I was exhausted and fatigued and he’s a five element acupuncturist in Aberdeen.

Dr Wayne Phimister (21:54):

And he blew me away with his story and what he was doing and I thought, Hey, I’ve got to learn this stuff. And I had a great friend, an older gentleman doctor, who also practiced acupuncture and I thought, Oh, I’m going to look into doing a course So within 30 days I was actually in an acupuncture course and I was like so passionate from the word go. Yeah, 30 cases in the first month and you know, went back for the second half of the course and loved it. And then I cant explainthat and just, it was working, you know, tennis elbows would go away if you did large intestine 11 one point, increase of your elbow along with One of the painpoints of your hand.

Dr Wayne Phimister (22:46):

So I think that was the origin of just getting to this healing concept and it just felt right with me. And so that was definitely the start of the pain journey of healing and then learning with Dr Chung Gun when I came to Vancouver in 2003 I’m so busy with medical exams and I felt I had to do an exam here to be certified in this country. So I trained with him and really impressed by his insight and his research into Dr. Cannon of professor Cannon’s work at Harvard back in the twenties thirties and forties last century, discovering homeostasis and, and also a fight flight response, which is kind of the core of current pain I think with drama, but also the rule of the innovation supersensitivity and a. Dr. Chung Gun came across this paper in the archives because it was lost and just explained all this same symptoms that he could see in a patient.

Dr Wayne Phimister (23:48):

And the signs that you can see in patients with autonomic dysfunction, like pill erection and cold patches, hot patches, sweat patches, dry patches, and tight thickened bands of fascia and muscle and muscle. And so it all made sense to him. And he was poking people and developing his own style with acupuncture to to release this Titan shot and bands. So when I saw this myself with patients and I was treating patients with this training, it just all made more sense, you know, like, okay, the body needs to release the tension, you know, and that’s why I’ve talked about for years, like over a decade. So, but again, it wasn’t until the use of a medical needle versus an acupuncture needle and the cutting action of that needle. You could hear a sound as it went through the tissues. And I didn’t know what that was, but patients have conversations with patients and I always say, you know, patients are the best teachers because you learn from them and they learn from you. And I can literally change my needle and I realize, Oh my goodness, this is different because it’s a different sound. Right. And what I realized with my insight from my Hunter patients that when you cut up a big moose with a knife, it blunts very quickly because at the CU in the meat and so too with the, with the physical human body and the seat you between the muscle layers. So that was a big aha moment for me. I think that was a turning point because I realized……

Dr Wayne Phimister (25:28):

You know, this working class doctor from Scotland and figured something out in the pain world that I hadn’t been taught or discovered even from Chang Gun then I was onto something. And it’s not only that, but it opened the doors of curiosity and openness for other things. And then came Dr Sarno and then you know, in came other people like Peter Gorski world famous physical therapist in the States who’s has over 50, 25 clinics, 25,000 people a year with the Gorski method, which is all about postural alignment and movement and how you can fix pain through just partial change and movement and activities, exercises. So again, this was another area and from there has gone on to the antiinflammatory diet and Steven Gundry and David Perell neater and the States and now you know, the, the role of cold exposure and breathing with like the Wim Hof method, which is backup insights.

Dr Wayne Phimister (26:30):

So that’s my new area. I’m like, Oh my gosh. Like wow, there’s another thing that we can do for people’s bodies to tap into this and now it’s healing. It’s already there and we just need to bring it out. Yeah. Right. So it’s just been one thing after the next and I’ve just embraced it. I do it myself. He goes, Gandy says, you know, you can’t really teach anything unless you do it yourself. So I go down and embody it and try it and experiment and see what happens and then start sharing it and then start getting results and then auditing it and documenting it. And I’ve improved myself. Yeah,

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (27:07):

I think you raise a really good point too is that, you know, theorize and understand, but until you actually experience, it’s you’re not as connected to it. You know, it’s like you really need to either see it here. It was very graphic. I have that very big visual right now. You know, or experience it yourself, you know, because it’s I think like an embodied experience goes a long way to, feeling that it’s worth and to commit your time and energy to keep in the field. Right. It’s, it’s, you know, cause there’s so many things we can learn, you know. Yeah. That’s very interesting. Very interesting. So I wanted to bring up a point that you also said about the diagnostics. You know, because actually it’s funny, my TEDx talk, which got postponed because of Covit 19, it starts with Descartes.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (28:09):

And so it’s quite funny. I was like, Oh, this is very interesting. But I also talk about the scans and and the research on the scans as well. And what I what I’ve seen clinically or in my practice is that it’s almost like when they received the scan as the confirmation, it’s almost like that’s a visual map of the disintegration of their spine, you know, and they’re walking around fearing to move because of what the understanding of what they see is on that, you know, on the, on the scans. And and I’ve had to do a lot of patient education to explain that, well that’s a vision and and result, it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t move or that, that if we work with your fascia, because as you know, I do Bowen therapy. But your body take, like, get rid of that image and put another image of your body able to heal and, and feel what your body feels like. You know, because if I treat people, they start to feel much better. And then they go, well, what’s true that or this? You know? So have you had a bit this experience with people coming in, you know, with a diagnosis like that and really afraid because of the images they see?

Dr Wayne Phimister (29:42):

It’s a very complex answer now sitting today, and I’ll say that, I’ll give you a little story behind it because I also had those conversations with patients for years. Well, the CT scan says this, the MRI scans, there’s this, but really you can go in x-ray or CT or MRI people on the streets right now who do not have pain and they will have the same or worse scans than you. So no pain and their scans are the same or worse than yours. because that’s what the sign shows. That’s what they’re doctors who came after Dr Sarno, like his students. And Dr Nadir, I think is one of them who wrote a brilliant book on how to unlearn your pain and shift I think thats his name down in California who I’ve interviewed in my podcast show. So they’re wonderful. because he trained with Dr Sarno of being in these early days and taking it through the last 20 years or so and pioneering the role of the mind body connection in the medical field and you know, this is where I would come from, and yeah well this is what the scan says but there’s more to you than that.

Dr Wayne Phimister (30:55):

But I think to bring a little of complexity, it was highlighted by several doctors on my podcast show was one is this level of accuracy within an MRI scan and a CT scan is not where we need it to be. And I felt wow that’s, that’s a different angle because maybe you know, maybe there is a greater intensity of MRI scanning that could identify something that the medics could go ahead and do interventional techniques to help. And I think we need to be open towards that. And I think as science advances that hopefully will become apparent. For example, three D CT scanning. So that’s one point. And the next point is what is the position? We do MRI scans and there’s one doctor says, look, you cannot get an MRI scan standing in Canada and we think about it when you stand you get your whole axial skeleton with gravity pulling and it’s a very different thing to lying down in a bed with gravity spread out.

Dr Wayne Phimister (31:57):

So this dynamic body that we have that always moves and never stay still really, you know, it’s a different picture that you’re seeing on a different position. Now I had to, well there is one MRI scan in Kamloops, in BC here and up in Dr Brown’s office who is a neurosurgeon and he does MRI scans sitting down. But I’m not too sure if that’s out public or a research or personal way, public or private service or not. But you know, it’s not accessible to most people, there needs to be improvements within the world of diagnostics for all of us to do our jobs better. But I think even seeing that at the end of the day, we’re not a machine. Right. And you know, and I’ll just, I’ll share one story that actually I thought off when you asked me the question of healing, how did it all turn?

Dr Wayne Phimister (32:56):

And it was a lady called Julie, who for 49 years had stump pain in the right leg after a gunshot wound, when she was 16, a horrendous childhood with many level level abuses. horrific Actually, she later told me all of this, but when she walked into my office and you’ve been on narcotics for 49 years with a lot of courage you know, you’re pain can go away if you redirect your thoughts. And she left my office with the affirmation from…..a hundred years ago in France who came up with this. And every day in every way I am getting better and better. You know, you may have heard that and then used in humour and Satire and several movies like the pink Panther with Peter Sellars or some others do have them in England and with Michael Crawford. But that term was taken by Julie and repeated in mind all day, every day.

Dr Wayne Phimister (34:01):

And I mean all day, every day, not just 20 times in the morning, 20 times at night. Like I encouraged people to do, but she embodied it like her life depended on it and it did and the pain went away and to this day it hasn’t come back in the stump. And I put that purely down to that belief and that persistence thought of something different can happen. And because you open yourself up and was curious and embodied the principles of the mind, body connection her pain went away. she still gets other pains She gets back pain that I’ve seen her a few times but not the stump pain. Fascinating case. Fascinating. And it’s interesting, but that really woke me up to hearing and believing in it and embracing it a hundred percent and therefore moving my career from family to pain medicine with, you know, as a GP, as a special interest in pain medicine.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (34:59):

Well, you know, when you bring that story up and the power and the focus she had, you know, that’s where I get concerned, you know, again, when I have patients that have received a diagnosis based on the scan, that tells them that they’re going to be always immobile or that I had one like where there’s fragments of your spine that probably gonna cut your blood vessels at some point. It’s like, really, you know, I, it’s so scary. Like, you know, again, I wasn’t in the room, this hearsay, it’s the patient telling me their best understanding. But the point is, if that’s how they’re feeling about it, that’s why, I mean, it’s like, it’s, you know, doctors need to be super careful. And I mean, all doctors, not medical doctors, anyone in the healing profession who can read this kind of work has to be aware of the words they’re using because the mind is powerful, you know, and and we can run into creating limitations by this negative or nocebo you know, tainted vision, of the body’s potential. You know, so anyway, it’s great to hear a positive story, you know, because of course it depends. You know, in my work I tend to hear the negative stories from trying everything else and they’re still in pain, you so it’s a very biased positioning because you know, it’s not a study, it’s a practice.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (36:41):

It’s my experience as well. Obviously every patient coming in has tried many, many things and they’re just, they’ve lost hope, you know, there’s no understanding there’s no way forward. You know, I’m just the next guy in the list that I hope I can say something to help them. And it’s very difficult from a medical perspective as well as a personal perspective to have that because that’s not what they see. And it’s certainly not what the regular GPs practice, you know?

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (37:19):

So do you have any….. Our time is coming to a close, but I still want to give you like a time to share something that, that could really help people listening to this. Whether they’re practitioners or, patients you know about pain. That you would like to share from your experience.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (37:45):

I would say there’s more than one way to heal pain. I think first and foremost, healing pain is possible and I think we need to listen to doctors, listen to professionals who have created their own path in this field and found results. And I mean people with 10,000 cases behind them, 10 years of experience. And then the other 10 is, or the other caveat is, you know, they’ve changed their career. They redirected their career and they’re sharing and they’re practicing a certain way because that to me is the evidence of where we need to go. Okay. And

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (38:36):

One big thing that’s very prevalent these days, that is our environment. You know, we’re here talking and I love what I’m seeing with you and Bowen Island there and the beautiful sun coming down behind your, behind your backdrop and the comparison to me with these screens that I made and for those who are only listening, but that’s a really good symbol of we are more than our bodies and we need to look at our environment. Maybe it’s a relationship that’s not healthy for us. Maybe it’s friends, maybe it’s the actual accommodation. Maybe it’s the lack of time in nature.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (39:26):

And the covert has helped us to waken up and realize our environment is massive in its contribution to our health and our pain to society. Pain or social pain or relationship pain, environmental pain. And we need to think of that, not just what we’re putting in their bodies and how we’re thinking. We’ve touched on today and cold exposure, which I think is a huge area, but also the external. But what we do everyday get out in nature. Everybody, sunlight is, you know, the healer for the Spanish flu a hundred years ago. Sunlight and being in nature, right. Helped get rid of the Spanish flu. And

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (40:16):

I think more and more as I study health and nutrition and all the different areas it’s this other dimension, you know, are we doing each job that we really want to do? Maybe not. Maybe it’s time to take a sidestep in and have a goal of something else to bring us more joy. And I think just to finish that up is the role of our heart in inner journey. You know, the, the language of enjoyment as David Hanscom talks about in back in control.com. And it’s like healing has two sides to it. One is the, all the activities that we do and he says the other side of the coin is the language of enjoyment. And we need to embrace me to fully be present and enjoy our life. And the little things we must start with a little things, a cup of coffee that the chat with a friend that you know, the book that you’re reading does matter.

Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND (41:16):

And then from the work of HeartMath in California clearly shows for almost 30 years of science, that heart brain connection. And the electromagnetics that are around us and nobody defies the concept of magnetic poles in earth. Or you know, the electricity in our brain or a heart with these investigations, we always do. So there’s electrical magnetic field around us. And when we are in connection with a heart, the heart helps to heal the brain. And that’s not just through electromagnetics. It’s also through the biggest nerve up through the body, into the brain, and then literally stimulate coherent oneness that allows every part of our body to heal. So the environment and the heart are huge, huge areas. I think we need to embrace more and more and this path

Speaker 1 (42:12):

Words cause they resonate so hundred percent and you’ve said it. So thank you very much for being connected. Thank you for joining us, Dr. Mann. Now for more information, go to [inaudible] dot com.