How Gut Health Connects to Your Mind, Body & Soul with Dr. Laura M. Brown, ND on The Healers Café with Manon Bolliger

expand on it.

 

Manon Bolliger  03:27

Great. So, curiosity. What were you before you decided to study when your kids were in school?

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  03:36

I was in technology. And I think my last post was a senior account executive with Microsoft business solution. So, I was making solutions for large corporations with customizable software. And you know, always creating solutions and looking at the whole. So that, that is…and I spent a little time in the learning industry as well, again, looking at their five-year plan and where their gaps are, and a little bit to do with that as well. So always looking at that whole picture, and then figuring out, you know, what is the root cause of what’s going on? And what’s the solution to get us to where we need to go. Which is, which is so congruent with what we’re doing in naturopathic medicine, but on an individual basis, and really, you know, everything is made up of individuals. And if individuals aren’t healthy, neither is you know, neither is the, the grander macrocosm, so, I just kind of went down into the microcosm a little bit to see what I could do. And it feels really good because I love sciences. It’s much more true to my heart.

 

Manon Bolliger  04:41

Yeah. Well, I often find that I mean, it’s either one’s own history, something that you either wanted to solve medically for yourself because you couldn’t find solutions. Or it’s kind of a way of looking at the world. You know? That lends itself really well to, you know, to the new industry of being a naturopath, you know. So, I can see how that ties in quite well, because you do need to look at the whole. And you specialize really though in gut health, which doesn’t mean you don’t look at the whole, because you’ve got to look at the whole person to figure out what’s going on with their gut anyways. But so, can you tell me a little bit more about how and why that became sort of the focus and with functional medicine as well, you? You know, you there’s lots of tests to see what’s going on. So how did that become your interest level?

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  05:50

Well, I’ve always had issues with, with digestion. And I think I learned more about it, you know, as I age, when I was younger, I used to do a lot of fitness competitions. And when I’d prepare, I’d always feel so much better. And that meant, you know, a pretty simple diet of just lots of fresh, you know, fresh vegetables and fish and some lean meat. In those days, there was not a lot of fat, which probably wasn’t so good. But you know, where I was, it wasn’t breads and pastures and gluten and you know, in particular. But then I’d go back to kind of eating normal after competitions, and then I’d be like, Why do I feel so bad? And when I went off to university, the first time, I had a lot of brain fog and issues focusing and concentrating, and I just couldn’t figure it out. But every time I’d go back to that simple diet, I felt so much better my brain so much clearer. And I could focus and like, Oh, what is this and this was before this was years ago, and before anybody ever would talk about anything, and celiac disease was hardly ever mentioned. I mean, it’s typically like 1% of the population. So, who was even thinking of non-celiac wheat sensitivity, but I was a bit of a canary in the mine that way. And, you know, it wasn’t just the brain, it was skin, I had skin rashes, things going on, you know, issues with fertility issues with my thyroid. So, there was a lot of things brewing. And I wasn’t getting the answers from the practitioners that I was going to see. They helped me a lot, but it didn’t quite get there. And so, it was always a bit of a quest to kind of figure things out. So, when I had the opportunity to, to come to come back to my sciences and to delve into naturopathic medicine, it really helped me understand how things work. And then when, you know, I’m always curious about how we’re knit together. But as the microbiome analysis and research started to explode in the last five years, I would say particularly, it was like, wow, now things are it was…it was like full steam ahead. And we’re just learning so much. And I learned something every single day, about how things are connected, and how the gut is connected to the rest of the health. And as I was saying to you earlier, like if I get stumped on a case, I usually have this little voice in the back of my head, just kind of saying, Laura, the gut, the gut, come on, we got it, what’s going on in the gut, because, you know, everything, all the health starts in the gut. Hippocrates said that 2400 years ago, it all starts in the gut, and I don’t really think really not much has changed since then. You know, he’s, he’s probably smarter than we ever give him credit for he’s the father of medicine. But my goodness, yeah, there’s a lot going on. Yeah, so a lot we can do.

 

Manon Bolliger  08:42

And as I was saying, it’s funny when you said that, because it’s true, the gut is everything, but what probably wasn’t as prominent then is, what about the nervous system? You know, what about the vagus nerve? What about how we’re able to digest our foods, you know, because it’s not just what you eat? It’s, it’s the context of which also, you’re eating it in, you know, the, the whole nervous system, you know, that is high, strong and over sympathetic, and, you know, at least that’s my experience, and when I was in practice, so, comments on that? How are you seeing all of this?

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  09:26

Absolutely, I mean, we have run in the last I would say, you know, probably 70 years, you know, the world has been in a gogogo state. And it wasn’t until we actually you know, were brought to our knees in the last few years and things started to slow down a little bit before they started to speed back up again. That a lot of people really realized how exhausted they really were and how much they were pushing things. Yes, digestion I mean, we need rest and digest. If we’re always in fight or flight, or freeze, right, we’re not digesting. So, and I argue that we not only have to digest our food, we have to digest the world around us.

 

Manon Bolliger  10:13

Yes.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  10:14

And that includes emotions and dealing with other people. And if we’re, you know, if we’re not in that, as you said parasympathetic state, or in that rest and digest state, not only are we not digesting our food, we’re not digesting the world around us. Everything is such overwhelm. So, it’s little wonder. And we, and we, you know, we often account stress, you know, okay, stress puts us in that fight or flight. But we know stress alone can disrupt and reduce the amount of diversity of our microbiome just stress alone. Yeah. Yes, it’s, it’s incredible.

 

Manon Bolliger  10:52

And I was just picturing somebody eating, you know, a perfectly balanced to their, you know, to what’s good for them, diet. And at the same time, they’re having a flow of thoughts about everything going on in the world. And they’re not even chewing their food, they’re not even present, to the moment that they’re actually experiencing, eating the foods that are good for them. Right? And then, you know, you wonder, well, where’s all that food…like sure the food didn’t harm them. But did? Did it do all that the food could do? You know, if we actually sat down took the time to enjoy the meal, ideally, to make the meal? Know what’s in the ingredients.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  11:46

It’s so true. I mean, our digestion doesn’t start when the food hits our stomach, it starts literally when thinking about it, what are we going to eat for dinner tonight, and then shopping for it, and then preparing it and cooking it and enjoying it, and just appreciating the textures and the colors and the aromas. And just how things change and commingle together, this is all part of it, and then having some social aspect to it, so that you can enjoy it with others. Because I always say, you know, like, the secret ingredient is love. And you’ve got to put love into your, into your cooking or into your meal preparation. And I mean, we’re living in a time when, when we have, you know, a lot of two income houses. And it’s difficult to be, you know, doing all those lovely things that I just mentioned. But at least you could add your own personal touch, you could buy some prepared and you know, fresh ingredients that you could bring home and throw in a pot. And you know, and just give it some love while you’re pulling the meal together. Or in some cases, I encourage you know, doing a cook up once or twice a week, stocking that fridge with, you know, your Lego blocks of colors, and varieties of things. And then you just mix and match and pull out and then you’re just warming up in a lovely pot. And you’re not having to eat the same thing every night. But you’re able to mix and match and at least have some good things.

 

Manon Bolliger  13:12

Yeah, no, I think context is huge. But so, let’s go a little bit into gluten. Because I actually haven’t really had an interview about gluten particularly and why it’s a problem. Maybe in everyone, but in certainly in some people very much so. So, what can you share with us?

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  13:36

It’s a really good question. Because I mean, I’m gluten sensitive, as I mentioned, but I don’t think everybody is as sensitive, as you know, as everyone else. About 1% of the population and it’s growing, it could be up to three to 5%. I’d have to check the latest stats, because it’s been a little bit or celiac, but there are so many others who are non-celiac gluten sensitive. And why this is growing is a curious thing. We don’t have all of the answers. Is it the genetically modified? Is it the pesticides and the herbicides? You know, what’s going on? You know, is it the stress that we’re not able to digest it? We just don’t have all the answers. And I don’t think there’s one particular answer that is just like this is why, but you know, we didn’t have this issue digesting things years ago. That wasn’t…it wasn’t the case. Or, you know, and I don’t think it’s just that we’re noticing it more now. So that now the numbers are higher. Yes, that’s part of it. But I also think that there is something going on environmentally that is contributing. Nobody has the digestive enzymes to break down gluten. That’s a fact. You know, it’s a grain that is a fiber that we take in and it bypasses and goes down into the large intestine where it’s fermented. And that’s why it’s such a good prebiotic, it’s fermented and helps feed, but on the way down for those of us who are sensitive, it can damage the areas in the tracks and in the ducts up into the by the gallbladder and the pancreas kind of those areas there in the liver. And then it can also damage the small intestine as we know the villi in the small intestine. And for those who are sensitive, it takes about, you know, five hours for that to repair itself. And usually, then it’s kind of time for the next meal. Okay, for those who are not sensitive, they might repair in like 20 minutes. So, it’s not as big of an issue. But those who are constantly, you know, putting the gluten down there, you know, every meal, and perhaps we’re eating more of it now. And you have to think, right, we are eating more of it now, because it’s so much more pervasive in the fast-food industry. Bread is so much there. And then all of the Sweet Treats, you know, the doughnuts and the pastries and gluten is used in so many processed foods for flavor and for consistency. So, it’s, it’s everywhere. I’ve even seen it in the most conspicuous places like coatings on nuts and things like that, that, you know, should be gluten free, but naturally, but even though it looks like they have a wheat coating on them. That just doesn’t fly, right? And it’s having to check all the…yeah, and mustard, mustard flowers. Nine out of 10 mustards on the shelf will have gluten in them. So, it’s, you know, checking things that you wouldn’t normally think of if you’re extra sensitive. So, it’s, I think, because, potentially, in addition to those other things I mentioned, if we’re just getting so much of it, and it’s causing that, you know, constant damage, that we’re just not getting a chance to heal. So maybe we’re, you know, maybe our whole villi aren’t completely flattened, like they are in celiac disease. But maybe they’re just damaged enough to make things not absorb well.

 

Commercial Break  17:03

Manon Bolliger here. And I want to thank you for taking actionable steps towards engaging your healing journey, and helping others discover their path by watching, sharing, subscribing, and reviewing these podcasts. Every review and share helps spread the word these different perspectives and choices and options for healing. And to thank you, I’d like to invite you to sign up to my free seven sequence email tips on health and healing for everyday life. You can go to healerscafe.com tips, thanks so much.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  17:46

Or not feel well have that low grade nausea. But it doesn’t always just gluten doesn’t always just affect the gut; it actually affects the brain six times more than the gut. Six times more than the gut. It’s not always a bellyache.

 

Manon Bolliger  18:00

Yeah, that’s funny. I knew that. But I didn’t know that. I mean, I know. It’s true, because I was saying what do you normally see people you know, is it if they’re not sure that they’re sensitive? You know, some? Like I, I know lots of people who say, Oh, yeah, I’m not taking, you know, any wheat these days? Because I’m off gluten, and it’s like, okay, you know, and then, but they don’t know why. Like, they it’s like, it’s you know, it’s because it’s the right thing to do, because maybe it’ll help. You know, so when you can identify what, if you are sensitive, what gluten actually does? Usually, like you said, it’s brain fog. It’s more on that level that people see the symptoms. But is that correct in your practice too?

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  18:54

Absolutely. And if you want to mix neurological stuff, because I know, you know, nerve nervous system and you love it. I’ll tell a brief story about one of my patients and he was about 70 years old, a retired nurse, like a surgical nurse. So pretty bright guy, but he can hardly form a sentence. When he struggles to walk in with a cane. He comes with his wife and his wife has to do most of the talking. So, we go through everything. He’d had a mild stroke a couple years ago. So, they thought that was you know, that was a good explanation for some of the decline that he was experiencing. But as we got further into conversation, I found out that his daughters have like their daughters have celiac. And I’m just like, Okay, this is a genetic familial thing. Have you ever been tested? Oh, no, I’m fine. I can eat bread. I’m okay. All right. I argue differently because there’s something called cerebellar ataxia, and this is something that gluten…this is one of the areas that gluten can affect the nervous system in the brain and the cerebellum is our balance, right? And where we put together motions and movements. So, okay, so I’ve been like, well, let’s let the humor me, would you please, you know, like, let’s just try gluten free for six weeks. Right? See how you do. And his wife is like I’m on with that she’s used to cooking for their daughters when they come over. So, she was good with that. And that’s really helpful, right? Because if you don’t have a compatible partner, especially with the person who’s cooking, it can be a bit of a challenge. But she knew. She knew all the details. She knew like the Wurster Shire saw, she knew the soy sauce, she knew, you know, all of the, you know, all of the package stuff. She was very familiar with all that, you know, her daughters had trained her quite well. And so, in six weeks later, he comes walking in without his cane. And he’s able to, like, carry on a conversation. He wasn’t able to do that six weeks earlier, this is six weeks, walking in like that. And so, I’m going Oh, good, you know, good work. Keep up. Let’s keep on this. Are you willing to keep on it? And he’s like, Yeah, I’m gonna I’ll stay on it for a while. Okay, I’ll see you in another six weeks just to kind of check in, right. So, he comes in another six weeks later. And he was pretty frustrated. And he was a little upset. And I’m like, What’s up? And he wasn’t really talking a whole lot. And his wife gives him the, you know, the jab and the, in the ribs? Come on, you got to, you know, spill your guts tell Dr. Laura. And he’s like, he goes, I was I was up on the CN Tower, which is like one of the tallest buildings in the world. Right. And I was doing the edge walk. Do you know what the edge walk is? Like, you’re up? I don’t know.

 

Manon Bolliger  19:13

On the outside of the room.?

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  21:07

Yeah, he’s up doing that. This is the guy that could had to walk in with a cane that could hardly speak, you know, three months earlier. He hadn’t been able to do it. He’s been wanting to do this for like three years. He’d been walking all around town with his company, their family that they’ve had over. And he was up there. But he was a little he was a little worried that, you know, he wasn’t walking as well as he was. And I said, Well, I think you might have just overdone it a little bit. You know, what do you think? And so, it’s like, yeah, okay. So, I mean, he wasn’t able to go back to completely normal, you know, but he was doing so much better than what he was. And then you know, over the course of time, he come back in and, you know, a little sandwich had snuck in with some bread or something, he really noticed a difference. And I always say, you know, if you hold like a white paper up, or should say, if you hold like a paper up with a lot of writing on it, you can’t see the black dot in it but if you hold the white paper up, and you only see the black dot, it’s very easy to decipher. So, when we take the gluten out completely, completely for a period of time, and then it gets back in whether inadvertently or on purpose. People really start to notice they’re like, really, I only had like a couple of crackers and my joints, and my knees started aching again. Can it really be that quick? And I’m like, Yeah, try it again and see, and be like, Oh, my goodness. But sometimes, you know, they don’t believe and it’s almost like a belief factor. But then, when they do it, it’s no longer just a belief. It’s a knowing and it’s an experience, and oh my gosh, it can make such a world of difference. People with joint pain, brain fog, nausea, vomiting, GERD. The cerebellar ataxia was a little more rare. And then rashes on the skin. Right, not just the dermatitis herpetiformis. But which is like the little bubbly rash that’s very specific more for the celiacs. But like eczema, and psoriasis, autoimmune conditions is kind of, you know, a kind of it can, you know, because it works on that gut and starts to disrupt things there.

 

Manon Bolliger  23:54

Have you found that when you have fermented brands, because I’ve had, I’ve had patients who do not want to get off it no matter what, and you know, and my attitude is never through force, you know, let’s see, let’s test lets you know, at least that’s how I live my life. So, I can’t be in contradiction to that. And tell them no, you must get off, you know, we make deals, but anyway. But I have seen that people who are gluten sensitive, if they have fermented breads, like as in sourdough, you know, especially the old recipes, where they do it for like 48 hours, that they’re, they don’t seem to react as much. And so, I’m just wondering if that’s just I’ve been convinced by some people that that is actually their experience, or whether there is something to it.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  25:03

I had a friend she wants told me, she goes, she’d moved into a new neighborhood. She goes, You know what, there is this lady who has the sourdough bread recipe, and she says that even the celiac people can eat it. And I just thought, Wow, that’s amazing. I wonder if there’s something in the yeast because she had had like yeast, like, you know, like the mother for fermenting for like 70 years, I’m like, maybe it’s our yeast, maybe, you know, maybe it’s not the changes in the grain, maybe our yeast are just really lame. And, and they don’t do the same. And we need these ancient yeasts to help break down, you know, the gluten so that it’s better. But I mean, sourdough still really stretchy, which, you know, still has that factor of the because the gluten makes it so stretchy, and so good. So, I have heard that. Personally, I’m a bit afraid to try it. Because I know what happens to me when I eat gluten, it’s just not a pleasant experience. And I don’t care to ever experience it if I don’t have to or intentionally again. But I’ve heard that the sprouted stuff, I’m not so sure how I’m not really convinced on that. But again, some people aren’t as sensitive, some people can get away with those things and be okay. It’s a bit of a spectrum, right? For some. And I always like to say, you know, its choice, we all make our choices, but let’s make them let’s observe what the choices do for us. And sometimes you do need to kind of clear the plate off, so to speak, right before you start adding it back in. So, I would have them clear the plate off, and then add it back in. For some people that’s too difficult. So then maybe we do the, you know, a little bit of a weaning off, right? So, we work on what are we going to, you know, how are we going to change the breakfast meal up, because sometimes it’s really tough for people. They’re okay with doing veggies and rice or potatoes or, you know, beans or whatever, the rest of the day and their whatever protein they’re eating, but then the breakfast might be difficult or something like that. So, then we just focus on okay, what are the alternatives? So never trying to I don’t want people to feel like they’re deprived. I felt deprived for so many years, because, you know, coming off, it’s like, no, let’s find other things that, you know, can be alternatives. And if it’s not close enough, and sometimes you just, you know, find something totally different. Right? So, right, there are some good gluten free breads out there. Some made with coconut flowers. If you’re okay with rice, there’s some with rice, arrowroot, almond, a eggs, flax, chia, there’s a number of different recipes out there. And when you haven’t had gluten in a long time, you’re thinking these tastes just as good. But it does take a little bit, you know, when you’re used to that yummy taste of gluten. Because there’s something called gluteal morphinans. For some of us. Yes. For some of us. Gluten can act like an opioid in the brain. And actually, we’re addicted. And I don’t know, I don’t have the testing. There are tests you can run for this. I didn’t do the testing for it. But I remember when I was kind of getting off the gluten and you know, I think oh, this is okay, right, asking I remember being in a Chinese restaurant I’m like, is the hot and sour soup gluten free? And yah, yah, yah, yah, yah, it’s gluten free. Right? The, you know, the lovely Chinese lady there and you’re trusting her, you know, I’m trusting her. And then I’m like, taking my sips and I’m gonna go, oh, this is so good. And my husband looks at me. And he and he takes the bowl and he goes don’t eat it.

 

Manon Bolliger  28:45

He could tell by your reaction.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  28:49

Right. But it’s true. Like, just like people can be addicted to sugar. You can also be addicted to gluten, and it’s something with the gluteal morphin ins that produce these opioids, like substances in our brain. Yeah. So it can be really difficult for people to get off of it. Because it’s addictive for some

 

Manon Bolliger  29:08

I have a funny story to share. I’ve had patients who they were Italian, right. And so, and it looked like they really couldn’t take glutens you know, and every time they tried, they reacted and so they were like fine, you know, they ended up going to Italy. And I got an email from them saying we are eating pizza, or eating, you know, all this stuff. And it’s like, and then they’re fine. And I’m like, what did they do? What is different, you know, so that’s when I started reading books about you know, gluten a little bit more and it’s like, okay, well, maybe it’s…and some of them are missed, so I don’t know which one I didn’t go deep, you know, is that the there’s less gluten in certain, you know, I’m in certain wheats, like the, the way they grow them the length or the height or whatever. And I can’t remember which ones debunked or which ones not? Or is it because they’re on holiday? They’re back home. And they’re, you know, eating moderately, but they’re happy. You know, it’s like, all these factors anyway, when they came back, they couldn’t do it anymore. You know, and it was just like, it was like, a period of six weeks, you know, which is nothing, where their reality was completely altered.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  30:38

And I’ve heard that too, some, and, and you’re right, like, some of the talk is, you know, we have modified in North America, the wheat plant, so that it does have more gluten, because this is the favorite component, it’s the stretchiness, it’s the flavor, it’s what it’s doing as far as an additive. So, yeah, so that could be part of it. But like you, I also think, you know, are we just, you know, relaxed and digesting better? Is that what it is? But we also know that there are, you know, one of the key researchers for celiac and wheat sensitivity, I think it’s Dr. Fasano is Italian, and a lot of the research comes out of Italy for this and, and Italy is now producing a lot of wheat and gluten free products.

 

Manon Bolliger  31:27

Yeah, which is, which is kind of great, you know, because they certainly know how to make it, you know, the pizzazz of it, so that it feels like you’re getting something special and good, you know. Anyway, I love food. So, I love discussing all aspects of food, including some of the problems. And you know, some of the things we don’t know, you know, we don’t know why, you know, so I love having the context of it. And, and yeah, continuing with the Inquisition.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  31:55

And sometimes it’s multi factored, right? Yeah,

 

Manon Bolliger  31:58

Absolutely. Well, so Dr. Laura, our time’s up.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  32:04

Okay. All right. Well, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

 

Manon Bolliger  32:08

Thank you for sharing all your knowledge and updating on what’s actually happening with this whole gluten situation.

 

Dr Laura M. Brown ND  32:16

Excellent. My pleasure. Anytime Manon.

 

Manon Bolliger  32:19

Thank you.

 

ENDING: 41:33

Thank you for joining us at the Healers Café with Manon Bolliger. Continue your healing journey by visiting TheHealersCafe.com and her website and discover how to listen to your body and reboot optimal health or DrManonBolliger.com/tips.